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The Type F Swords Were Never Real Swords: Here’s Why (by Eric Wisbith)

2/1/2016

37 Comments

 
This is a guest blog post contributed by Eric Wisbith.  Eric has a BA in History (with a minor in Military History) from Slippery Rock University.  He has recreated 18th century sabers and other edged weapons to better understand the combat application of those weapons in a American tactical environment.  He is a veteran of the United States Marine Corps with service in Iraq.

While we wait for J. Hutton Pulitzer to rummage through his local flea market and present us with another “100% confirmed” Roman artifact to prove is a modern toy or a tool or whatever, I’ve been asked by the host to weigh in on understanding the origins of the possible first generation of the Fake Hercules Swords, the Type F. By now, we collectively, as well as recognized experts, have conclusively proven the “swords” are not actual Roman artifacts. Although we have determined what it isn’t, we are still curious about what it was before it became a kitschy trinket sold in the street stalls of Italy, because there is a curious major change in design between the Type F and all the others-the inclusion of what appear to be truncated fullers on the blade of the probable earliest models of the FHS family. Eliminating objects as possible candidates for the “Mother Of All Fake Hercules Swords” (MOAFHS), allows us to focus our efforts in ever narrower types of objects and time frames, with the result of eventually refuting definitively the Pulitzer narrative by identifying the genesis of the Nova Scotia sword.

Because the Type F exhibits some elements of actual sword design (though, tellingly, not Roman sword design) many people have concluded the MOAFHS was possibly a real sword at some point. However, a more specialist eye cast on the features leads me to the conclusion that at no point was the MOAFHS a real sword, thereby eliminating a whole category of objects we need to look at. Knowledge of historical European sword design elements, their function, the history of European swordmaking and craftsmanship, personal experience in examining and minutely handling 18th, 19th, and 20th century swords, and experimental archaeology in reconstructing swords of the period with fire, anvil and hammer all played a role in this assessment, that the designer of the MOAFHS wanted to visually create a swordlike appearance, but did not understand actual sword sword design or function, as you will see.

First, you need to know your terminology, as I’m going to toss out a lot of technical terms-a basic guide to sword nomenclature can be found here.

Now let’s look at the California sword and begin.
Picture
The California sword.
We have a straight, double fullered (stopped), two edged blade with a prominent midrib, no ricasso, cast as an integral unit with the anthropomorphic hilt in a bronze/brass alloy. What does this tell us? First, it is not Roman. Roman blades were iron and mild steel, with no fullers, forged, not cast, separately from a non anthropomorphic hilt in bone or wood, and then constructed, as here, or here, or seen here:​
Picture
Illustration from Saliola and Caprini- “Pugio-Gladius Brevius Est-History and Technology of the Roman Battle Dagger”, pg. 47 (English edition).
OK, so it’s not Roman, but is it a real sword blade from some later sword? Its got fullers, right? No, it isn’t. Fullers, ricasso, single or double cutting edges, cross section, all these elements, while also decorative, are primarily functional elements of blade design, that inform a practiced eye on the purpose a sword was made for, (war or display), the type of sword it could conceivably come from, and the potential geographic location and time frame it was made in, and even by whom, an actual swordsmith or not. In short, sword blade elements, singly and in combination, are diagnostic.

Let's start with the fullers, then. What is a fuller for? Simply, to lighten a sword while preserving structural strength, to balance a sword by moving its center of gravity, and to be decorative. Short swords designed for thrusting do not require them, which is why the Roman gladius doesn’t have them. Longer swords designed to inflict damage by cutting do, as seen in Germanic swords (the spatha, Frankish, Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, etc.), but those swords have single fullers, so no matches there. Medieval swords follow those same basic elements, since they are refinements on a cultural European consensus on what swords look like and do. Double fullers do not appear until the 17th century.  Double fullers, in addition, are incredibly difficult to make-look up hand forging, pattern welding and tempering a sword and shaping a single fuller, and you will understand why that design element remained static for centuries, and why smiths were considered practically magicians. This is particularly fascinating. 

Double fullers don’t really show up in European blades until the end of the 17th century, and only in very small numbers of high end broadswords created by superior craftsmen in the “capitals” of the European swordmaking craft, Toledo, Spain and Solingen, Germany. Sword technology and skill were rapidly moving into new forms-the state of the art was becoming increasingly complex. Owning these weapons was like owning a high end sports car or designer clothes or a famous work of art -- the smith even signed his work. They were expensive as hell status symbols showcasing the wealth and status of the owner, just as swords throughout the ages have, as this late 17th century basket hilted broadsword with a Solingen blade shows-but also a completely functional deadly weapon quite capable of killing.
Picture
Double fullers show up almost exclusively on broadswords, because it's a BROADSWORD that has room for them.
Notice, however, the fullers don’t look like our Type F. They are much shallower, narrow, and they gradually terminate in leaf shaped points before they reach the guard. (like all good swords, this bad boy has a ricasso) This means that if our creator had used a sword like this to build from, he would have had to strip it, and cut an entirely new tang, eliminating the ricasso, in order to bring the fullers into contact with the guard, and that's just not really likely.These are functional and decorative, because the smith, as taught by his master in an unbroken line going back centuries, an expert of his craft traditions, knows you only have to remove a small amount of metal to create a huge effect in the way a sword handles while keeping its strength-its subtle, whereas our Type F fullers are huge, crude, and if put on a real steel blade, would have weakened the performance of the sword beyond practical use. The majority of the weight of the sword would be on the edges, not the centerline, unbalancing the weapon, making it unwieldy and unstable. This can be seen clearly in the cross section of the blade of the California sword:
Picture
”Are you not entertained? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!”
This sword shows no characteristics of fullers in actual European swords, or of forging, nor of symmetry- even an uncalibrated eye can see the midrib is lopsided,and the left side blade edge noticeably smaller than the right. It’s just sloppy craftsmanship, indicative of being cast, not forged, by a person unfamiliar with fabricating a real sword, displaying only superficial visual elements, exactly what one would expect to see in a non functional cheap tourist trinket, unless our swordsmith was blind, drunk and utterly incompetent, that is.

​The lack of a ricasso, or potentially only a vestigial one-(it's difficult in the cast to tell what is blade and what is hilt components)  again is a “100%, smoking gun” sign that we are not dealing with a real sword. Here is Andy’s scan of the California sword:
Picture
”Ricasso? Hercules don’t need no ricasso!”
A ricasso is the unsharpened section of the blade near the hilt and usually within the guards in front of the quillons. One purpose of the ricasso was to allow a user to curl a finger over a quillon, allowing for better point control. Often times, longer swords would have an extended ricasso, allowing the gripping of an entire hand onto the blade past the cross guard for more leverage. (see below) It also thickens the metal that transitions into the tang, adding structural strength, a bit more longitudinal rigidity, and prevents damage to the scabbard throat. Essentially, a ricasso is an almost standard feature on all European swords from the Renaissance on, and a lack of one combined with the presence of double fullers means this isn’t a real blade, now, then, or ever.
Picture
18th century Scottish claymore hilt, showing double fullers and ricasso. The hearts say “I’m sensitive, but I can decapitate you.”
Are there any exceptions to this rule? Yes, some sabers are double fullered and lack a ricasso, but sabers are not swords, technically. (a saber is curved and single edged, and the fullers are typically above the centerline with a triangular cross section, while a sword is straight, double edged, and has a symmetrical cross section, with fullers along the centerline) so a saber isn’t our blade. Sabers, incidentally, are not native European military material culture, being introduced in the 17th century as heavy  mounted troops abandoned lance and plate armor for pistols and cutting weapons in a new type of light cavalry, the Hungarian-Polish style hussar. Saber is derived from the Hungarian verb szab- "to cut."
Picture
European hussar saber, early 19th century-a superficially close match to the California Type F, but the cross section and blade width are not a match. This has a single edged cross section, broadly triangular, not the double edged of our Type F. Sabers are narrower than the width of our 4 cm Type F blades, averaging about 2.7 centimeters consistently for the entire 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. Note that the midrib begins to flare as it transitions into the tang. A double fullered specimen of this type is also relatively uncommon, thus eliminating its possibility as a potential “mother blade”
Picture
A more typical double fuller arrangement on a 1690 English saber
As we transition from the second half of the 19th century into the early 20th, the likely period for our MOAFHS to be created, a few things are happening that influence its design and cement the likelihood of it being ab origine a piece of tourist ware, not a real sword. First, swords are becoming smaller, more delicate, more symbol than weapon. Firepower had finally rendered swords useless on a battlefield, after 2,000 years. Blades are no longer double fullered, at least in a meaningful way, because flat blades are now fashionable and display decoration better.   Width is down to 2 cm or less. They are now called “dress” swords. Look at this German officer with his little toy sword, a world away from the combat blade of just a century before. 
​

Sabers are maintaining some utility but also increasingly a vestigial remnant of a bygone era. Military edged weapons are industrialized, mass produced, not handcrafted. Swordsmiths are increasingly marginalized into producing Romantic Victorian era decorative pieces-pseudo weapons, with increasingly elaborate and useless decorative motifs, including anthropomorphic hilts, classical figures and blades that couldn’t cut fruit. These are not swords, they are objets d’art. With the disappearance of real swords from everyday life, people forgot what real swords were supposed to look like. The late 19th and early 20th also witnessed a simultaneous explosion of interest in the classical world and archaeology as a science takes a few baby steps away from treasure hunting and tomb raiding (of which Andy is more qualified to write about)-resulting in a market around the tourist trail of Roman sites for upper middle class Europeans, with a nodding acquaintance of classics but none of actual artifacts or just a desire for a cheap souvenir. Emperor Napoleon III commissions digs at Alesia, The Roman Museum at Mainz begins to assemble collections, the British Empire looks to the Roman one as a model, and Italy cashes in with tourism. The FHS fills a niche in downmarket tourist ware, created by a person who had never held a real sword in his life, and manufactured by some Italian blacksmith or metalworker who was slamming out metal in his backyard, in a 19th century analogue to these metal workers in India today, who for all we know are casting Design Toscano swords.
Picture
The FHS line, in the end, looks just like what it is: cheap junk. The casting is poor, certainly not up to the standard of the high end figurative dagger/sword market of the time, Hercules even in his best iteration in the Type F is sloppy, not graceful or artistic, the blade just as bad-lopsided, clunky, ponderous and awkward. Hercules himself is posing in a non typical way, as if they repurposed an Atlas from a telemon and slapped a lion skin on him. Maybe the sword was a Frankenstein mashup of a decorative elements and an imagined blade bashed together out of scrap iron in some Naples slum for the tourist trade, or another theory forthcoming, but I can say with conviction, never was the MOAFHS a real blade, nor was the hilt a real sword grip, and together, it screams to me of a poorly conceived and executed artistic evocation of sword design, not a crude recasting of a real weapon's steel blade and hilt in brass. It mashes together a midrib (actually seen on early Roman blades) with double fullers seen on much later weapons, but omits a ricasso, all incorporated into a "blade" that mimics the width of a Roman gladius. To put it bluntly, it's’ a bastard hybrid, too crude, too badly designed, too useless to have originated in a real military blade. A full blade like that would handle like garbage-unbalanced, too heavy, structurally weak. The design elements, while visually evocative of real swords, are combined in ways no real swords do. None of it fits right. It just looks all wrong. What amazes me the most about this hunk of crap is that Pulitzer actually thought it would fool anyone with a functional frontal lobe, literacy and an internet connection.
37 Comments
Gina Torresso
2/1/2016 10:05:11 am

This article was so informative, more than I expected.

I learned more than I ever thought I would know about swords. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and putting this information together for us Oak Island enthusiasts.

Reply
Jan
2/1/2016 10:29:50 am

This is a confusing (and potentially misleading) article.

Roman swords DID have fullers, there are gladius finds with multiple fullers, more than two.
See reconstructions by Patrick Bárta of swords from Zemplin and Krasnik:
http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquity_and_early_middle_age.php

Also check out the Roman spathas (again, with two to three fullers) from Nydam, Illerup and Podlodlow.

Fullers were not just forged historically, they were also ground.

"(like all good swords, this bad boy has a ricasso) "
There are plenty of good swrods without a ricasso and the style of fighting they were used for wouldn't require nor benefit from a finger over the guard.

Reply
Eric
2/1/2016 12:12:54 pm

Good eye, and I was aware of those, but I had to somewhat generalize and be selective and not cover every subtype and variant, otherwise the post would have been excessively long. Narrow fullers, in the form of cut channels, cold chiseled, did exist, but unlike the Type F, do not change the basic cross section or geometry of the blade, so I could leave them out without compromising the validity of my assertions. Fullers like those in the Type F do not exist in the gladius nor the spatha.

Reply
Jan
2/1/2016 01:03:58 pm

What about these Roman spathas?

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/132-roman_sword/132-corpus-v.jpg
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/119-roman_sword/a19av.jpg

Jonathan Feinstein
2/1/2016 01:25:39 pm

They certainly are spathas with double fullers, but they are also replica blades. I'm not saying they aren't perfect replicas, but before I could say they are, I would need to see the originals they are reconstructions of.

Jan
2/1/2016 02:24:55 pm

Jonathan:

the Nydam swords:
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/pattern_1.jpg
http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/celticwebmerchant/full26801058_b.jpg
http://www.heorot.dk/nydam-sword.jpg

Illerup swords:
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/illerup_safg.gif
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/illerup_safg_photo_small.gif
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/illerup_saex.gif

Bárta is a top swordsmith, unlikely to make a mistake in such a reconstruction. His prices and the length of his waiting list kind of reflect the quality and research.

Jonathan Feinstein
2/1/2016 09:57:05 pm

These pictures and drawings do not disprove what Eric said. I do not know what all of them actually are since some are unlabeled and some drawings do not show us the cross sections, which really should be drawn in association with several parts of the blade.

In the first of the Nydame shots, I cannot say that any of the blades are double fullered. The few that show lines going nearly the length of the blades could be delineating flat sections as easily as fullers. (similar to the drawing in the final of the Illerup pictures)

The Behmer Type IV does look like it has several fullers in it, but they do not look like they change the basic cross-section, not being very deep at least that is how it seems in the picture. It is possible the picture is misleading that way.

The second of the Illerup sword links does show a blade with double fullers as you say, but what is it? I just see a picture of a short section of sword. No caption and I don't know the site well enough to find an explanation of what the picture is. The small section of double fullering does look like the reproductions, but I don't know if the authentic blade is what the repro is supped to be. As I said before, I am not saying that it is not, merly that I do not have the necessary data to say it is. II am also not arguing that the bladesmith is not a master of his art and very knowledgeable, but his site does not document the originals his work is based on so I just cannot say with just a small photo and no explanation of what it is if the two blades can be accurately compared. But yes they do look alike.

The third Illerup link is a drawing with cross sections shown on two representative parts of the blade and clearly indicate the blade has a single fuller only with two tapered flat sections on either side of it before the bevel that forms the edge. Once again I do not have an explanation of what it is, though it is a good drawing that accurately shows how it is shaped.

Jan
2/2/2016 02:56:36 am

Photos come from this article:

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/illustr/ib_3_4.html

Fullers are not simple, let's just say that. As there are mostly decorative grooves (which still affect the weight and handling of the blade), there are also concave grinds into the sides of a diamond profile - are they fullers? They're more shallow, but ultimately they are sections of a circle profile ground or forged into the blade, meant to make it lighter and they do create a cenral ridge.

According to the website (hosted by a university, if that helps with credentials), there are over 400 swords from Illerup, only a few of which shown in the photos.
The very first one has a clear double fuller, as does KADI towards the end. Interestingly, both go against symmetry (also mentioned as a staple of real swords - which is pretty much not true for various reasons) by having the fullers only on one side.

As for depth or definition - most iron swords, especially from these periods are heavily corroded, so we have to guess as to how much material was lost. I'd personally trust an educated guess of someone like Patrick Bárta. (some of this is more objective, there are some models from metallurgy you can apply for corrosion etc.)

Nonetheless, these are Roman swords with double fullers, not too different from the one on this pathetic bronze fake.

Jonathan Feinstein
2/2/2016 03:14:13 am

I'll give you that two blades do display double fullers (which proves the point) but I also note the blades are asymmetrical, being fullered only on one side. I would guess the double fullers were used more to apply the decorative motif than to affect the weight and balance of the blade. In fact I would guess there would not be a positive effect on the balance from asymmetric shaping, but that is not the point.

In any case, while I will agree these are two examples of double fullering on Roman era blades, I do not think they apply to the small bit of fullering on the CA and Sonja blades. Fake as they are and even though the fullering is poorly done, it is symmetric and more likely someone's attempt to add a feature without understanding how and why it would have been there.

Jan
2/2/2016 09:25:00 am

And I never claimed otherwise.

Peter Geuzen
2/1/2016 02:08:22 pm

Jan, what are you suggesting is “misleading” and to what ends? Are you saying the California Sword could in fact be a real Roman Sword because of the fullers? If so, then the Sonja Sword being a match to the California would also be a real Roman Sword. If you think the overall style is Roman, including matching hilt forms, do you also believe the Nova Scotia sword is Roman? If so, then the three type matches to the Nova Scotia are also Roman in your eyes, yes or no? Therefore, do you think we are looking at six authentic Roman swords, because some real Roman swords had fullers and the ones we’ve found with partial fullers are a close match to the Nova Scotia and others without fullers? I think the point is that the crude half assed attempt at fullers are just plain wrong and are part of the whole list of things that are wrong, and as a result all of these are just fantasy souvenir swords. This isn't a debate about real swords vs real swords because none of the Swordgate swords are real.

Reply
Jan
2/1/2016 02:26:22 pm

They're all fake. Just saying we can't use "Roman swords didn't have fullers" to prove they're fake.

Jonathan Feinstein
2/1/2016 10:32:31 am

Thank you, Eric, for the detailed and well-reasoned explanation.

I had another red flag that set me off about these pieces (other than some you mention - however I don't want to imply I knew it all, you hit a lot of points I never saw). I was bothered by the rivets (or imitation rivets, rather.

There are five bumps that looklike they may have been rivets on an "original" hilt. The three between which the lions' hind feet extend and then the two on the far ends of the bottom of the hilt, obviously bey9ond the edges of the blade.

Now I have seen similar rivet patterns in Middle Bronze age daggers (and swords, if you call something 12-15" long a sword) from Israel. In those cases only the blades have survived, so it is guessed the hilts were wood, but might have been bone. The blades had no real tang as more modern pieces do, just an extension into the handle up to a inch in length. The difference, however, is that those blades get comparatively wide at the top, probably as wide as the hilt, maybe a touch wider. From experiments with reproductions I made I can say that if used, they would not have been good hacking weapons (but those are much earlier than even the supposed Roman weapon by almost two millennia.). but that's what made me spot the rivets.

Now if it were a brass/bronze hilt on a fake sword it might have held up for normal handling if riveted only at the bottom of the hilt like this. I tried looking for signs of other rivets and could not spot them. If force-fit with a long tang it might not have needed them, but I looked anyway and did not find them, but those two outside rivets still bother me.

They seem to suggest the Hercules hilt could be made of two pieces (since they couldn't have been there to attach to a blade), but if so, I thought it would have needed more rivets higher up to hold the two halves together up there too since there seem to be none, those two seem useless to me in this context at least. Or am I missing something there?

As to the pose, I agree completely it is not a common pose for Hercules outside of movie posters. I doubt it is a repurposed Atlas however, (unless a similarly recent one) as the ancient depictions of Atlas whether he is holding up the sky or the world, almost always shows him bearing the bulk of the weight on his shoulders. This is a body-builder pose and not one commonly used in the ancient world. In fact the only ancient figures I found in this pose were the figural columns from the Pompeian Baths and none of them had spread legs like this, which makes me guess it is a modern pose too (but I don't claim to be an expert on Roman art.

Well, I went on too long, especially since I only meant to say "Thank you." Thanks again!

Reply
Eric
2/1/2016 11:34:21 am

Yes, I'm cooking some things to bring up with the rivet angle and the pose in connection with Celtic swords. Look up the Hallstatt and La Tene hilts and I think you will know where I'm going.

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
2/1/2016 12:02:48 pm

I have to admit while searching the shapes of those hilts keep catching my eye, but they never seem to pass my "second look" test (so to speak), but I am interested in how you see it, so I'll wait and see,

cydnee
2/1/2016 12:03:41 pm

This examination of this sword and subsequent dialog have been fascinating and enlightening.

Re: Hercules pose for the hilt.

I looked for possible objects of inspiration for the design of the “Roman” sword hilt. I found Pollaiuolo's Hercules and the Hydra (c. 1475) and statues of Hercules slaying the Hydra as examples. Hercules is shown with one arm raised and wielding a club. If a souvenir sword designer wanted to incorporate the club in their hilt design and maintain the hilt’s structural integrity, it would make sense to me for them to show Hercules clasping the club in both hands over his head rather than a design having a hilt with an extended arm and club which could break off. Hercules’ club works well as the sword pommel.

Painting: http://www.wga.hu/support/viewer_m/z.html

Statue: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lawrence_chard/8155005379

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
2/1/2016 02:04:28 pm

Hercules holding his club in one hand is the most common action pose until the modern age. He also commonly rests the club on the ground or on his shoulder. I'm sure this was done for the same structural integrity you mention, although there are statues with the club held in one hand over his head. The Vienna statue looks fairly late to me (I can be wrong) and the pose looks clumsy as heck like the sculptor had never held a stout stick in his hands, which maybe was the case. His hands are too far apart, but that's artistic license I suppose.

On the other hand, we think the FHS hilts are late too, so maybe, but it is still not the "Hollywood Hercules" pose that the hilts are closest to, but okay, I would say a definite maybe as an inspiration..

Kris Lawhorn
2/1/2016 10:44:16 am

Very informative! I learned quite a bit about sword blades and their history! Kudos!

Reply
Doug
2/1/2016 10:54:15 am

Thank you for an informative and educational analysis of the sword.

Reply
Terry J. Deveau link
2/1/2016 11:46:16 am

Not meaning to be a "smartass", but in the caption of the "European hussar saber" figure, I think the "4 cm" and "2.7 centimeters" mentioned there should really be millimetres.

Notwithstanding that minor point, I appreciate and enjoyed the article.

Reply
Terry J. Deveau link
2/1/2016 11:56:17 am

Ha, ha. Never mind. The joke's on me. I see now that you mean "width" (as you said), not "thickness" as I misunderstood. Carry on! ;-)

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Eric
2/1/2016 01:46:54 pm

Thanks, and you brought up a valid point that will kill the Type F as copies of a real sword even more stone dead-the metrics of the thickness in a real forged blade would be virtually identical and symmetrical from one edge to the other. All we need is a set of calipers to verify that.

Ph
2/1/2016 01:24:07 pm

Simply fascinating, thank you.

Reply
Larry link
2/1/2016 01:58:32 pm

I've followed this word thing from early on on all the sites. Now I'm confused as it was said (I thought) right from the beginning it was NOT a real sword but a Ceremonial Sword. Everything in this article is comparing it to a sword made for fighting, which the Oak Island sword was not.(I thought) If it was made for ceremonial purposes only wouldn't it be made from different metals? Can someone please enlighten me as to why a Ceremonial sword is being compared to a Roman fighting sword in this article. Its very confusing and I want to know what I'm missing. Thanks for your help on this.

Reply
Peter Geuzen
2/1/2016 02:39:59 pm

It, being the Nova Scotia and salient example, is not a ceremonial anything. The person who said so, knows nothing, has proven nothing, and it is assumed never will be able to demonstrate anything about it being ceremonial, magical, or even old. This blog has been debunking the claim and finding facts regarding the full range of souvenir things (lets not even call them swords) that have been reproduced in the ``style of``. They are all fake.

Reply
Larry link
2/1/2016 03:31:00 pm

Thanks Peter, has anyone had the Nova Scotia sword in their possession to analyze it? I read a lot of posts but everyone seems to be analyzing known replicas from California and other places. I don't understand why you would analyze a fake to determine if another one is real. I had read that some real ones exist in a private collection in the Netherlands and a museum in Italy. (who made and sold replicas) Just wondering thanks for the help.

Peter Geuzen
2/1/2016 04:03:37 pm

St Mary's University in Halifax has done complete testing of the Nova Scotia version and determined it to be late 1800s brass. If you haven't skimmed or read the whole category about this, there is much you can check out:

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/category/swordgate

There are no real ones. Pulitzers claims are dead ends. He has never identified or shown anything from any museum or private collection. Much contact with the Naples and other museums, from people who follow this blog, has confirmed that there is no available example in any museum. As a result, there are no museums making any copies and there appears that there never has been. Pulitzer basically just makes these claims up as he goes. The claims of private collection examples are equally useless. The Florida Kenney example is the one we know about that he claims is the other real one because it matches the Nova Scotia. Since the Nova Scotia is modern era or fake then the Florida Kenney also is.

The Design Toscano iron version uses some wording in there description about it being a museum copy but direct contact by someone here got a direct reply that essentially said this is just advertising spin and nothing more.

There may be more testing of a range of available examples in the future, who knows, but not of any from any museum or private collections that Pulitzer has BSed about, because they don't even exist.

Jan
2/2/2016 03:01:19 am

Ceremonial swords mostly tend to look like fighting swords, only more decorated.
Compared frex to the so called Tucson swords (made of lead and looking like a child sculpted them from play dough), this fake is more believable in that it at least somewhat looks like a sword.

Reply
Eric
2/2/2016 06:59:20 am

Yes, and in claiming such a provenance for the Oak Island sword, Pulitzer displays (as usual) a lack of knowledge of ancient culture. Andy can give a more detailed analysis, but in many tribal, ancient, and classical warrior societies, there is no distinction between ceremonial objects and utilitarian ones other than the level of decoration and craftsmanship. It would have been considered insulting to the deity, or the person being honored with a ceremonial object, to NOT have it function for its intended purpose-many votive objects are ritually "killed" before putting them in graves by rendering them useless. The concept of a ceremonial object having no practical use is a more modern concept, as I show above in European swords. Previously, highly decorated "ceremonial" weapons were still functional, as Martin van Creveld writes in his outstanding study, The Culture of War- "The question arises whether such pieces were intended for real life war or other purposes, such as display, presentation, or the hunt...The answer seems to be that most of them were used for all of these. Conversely, any weapon, however beautiful, that is incapable of being used is a mere toy, more suitable for the nursery than anything else. In some societies it would not be considered fit even for that...the most important motive behind the decoration was the men's pride in, and love for, the weapons they operated. Given that their lives depended on their weapons' performances, this is not surprising." And as a warrior, I can tell you Creveld is right on target.

Pablo
2/1/2016 05:11:55 pm

I kindly suggest that Eric finishes his magnificent analysis with the words *drops the mic*.
So what this means is that there was never any original sword on any Naples museum, and as some of us suspected, it was most likely a marketing strategy to say that it was a copy of the Museum one.

Reply
Anon
2/2/2016 03:27:15 am

Early on when Andy first posited the idea that the versions with fullers might be earlier down the copy generation line as opposed to later, I was thinking about speaking up. I'm no expert at all, but my exposure to the "cheap knockoff swords and knives" market had taught me that reproducers sometimes try to make their copies even more appealing than the original (when they're up-front about them being copies or replicas inspired by an original).

I just thought that perhaps the fullers were added to give the sword a more "menacing" or "cool" look, since many people find these grooves one of the most aesthetic thing about blades, when you're looking at them as art... I never brought it up, though, because I couldn't begin to imagine why the fullers terminated only a couple inches past the hilt.

Anyway, nice write-up. And even though it seems like I wasn't actually right about the reason the fullers exist in those models, it's reminded me that we should teach ourselves to speak up and be less inhibited about sharing ideas, even though being wrong is always a possibility.

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Peter Geuzen
2/2/2016 07:26:18 pm

Jovan has been posting the last few days that he will be on coastocoastam, a radio show, today Feb 2, which technically depending on the affiliate gets to air after midnight so it might actually be Feb 3. He was also spewing this in his video on Sunday night, that he was about to go on a multi hundred radio station tour, implying several different stations and a road trip, but really it's just a late night syndication thing. Unless I was sleepwalking, as of yesterday the coasttocaostam website had him listed as an upcoming guest talking about Oak Island Roman crap. Earlier today, and again unless I was sleepwalking, the website had been revised to TBA - To Be Announced, with a generic line or two about taking calls and an open forum. This appeared to me to say 'plans have been changed'. Checking just now, they have new guests and new topics and absolutely no mention of Jovan being on the show tonight. http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2016/02/02

I'd call that a BURN. Anybody else follow this? Wonder why they dumped him?

Reply
cydnee
2/2/2016 09:29:57 pm

https://medium.com/@InvestigatingHistory.org/prometheus-burns-oak-island-history-for-more-episodes-the-oak-island-war-over-truth-e5b953bf6173#.bx3souh3b

Jovan wrote this about the interview being canceled:

"So Mr. Burns, yes you have some power and you called George Noory of Coast to Coast AM and squashed our guest appearance for this evening. You have that kind of control when in fact Mr. Noory appears regularly on Ancient Aliens, and you have control over Rick and Marty and the Curse of Oak Island, but what you do not have control over is the truth about history and the truth will always win."

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
2/3/2016 01:43:46 am

The thing that gets me about Mister Pulitzer is that not only is he a liar and a charlatan, but he is not even a smart or clever liar or charlatan. His history seems to be one of sticking with a claim long after it has been proven untrue to anyone with two neurons to run together.

No, this is a captain who insists on going down with his ship in spite of the fact that even the rats have disembarked, so rather than moving on directly into his next uninformed and insupportable assertion, I expect him to ride this one for at least another year, possibly as long as Curse of Oak Island runs, although I wish he had stuck with selling his crystals or questionable mining claims.

sword skeptic
2/2/2016 07:45:07 pm

If you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about historical weapons and armour, check out teh following sites:

www.swordforum.com

www.myarmoury.com

www.armourarchive.org

www.romanarmytalk.com

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Center/index.php? (for Bronze Age weapons and armour)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt14YOvYhd5FCGCwcjhrOdA

There are more, but those are good starters, especially for the period that concerns Roman swords and Bronze swords.

Reply
flip
2/19/2016 09:47:47 pm

Thank you so much for this blog post. I'd been casually following this saga and it's great to be able to put some context/detail to the expert opinion that this is a fake. Metal analysis aside, it's hard for a layman to understand how people can tell a fake from real and this blog post really taught me a lot about the history and making of swords.

Reply
Romina
6/3/2016 05:42:40 pm

Eric where are you? Are you okay?

Reply



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