The Incredible Shrinking Hercules?

1/28/2016

This is just a quick post to show you a first-time-ever, in-person lineup of three of the provisional types of Fake Hercules Swords. The Italian eBay Sword (aka Sword 4 in the Fake Hercules Sword Database) owned by Trevor Furlotte arrived at SCIAA today to much fanfare. I taught class this morning until 9:45. When I got to my building after that I was immediately told that a box had arrived. Three PhDs watched me open the box and we got to do a quick visual comparison between the Italian eBay sword, the California sword, and the Design Toscano sword. Then everyone went about their business for the day, including me.

I'm looking forward to having a careful look at the Italian eBay sword when I get a bigger block of time. But I wanted to share one quick observation. If I've correctly surmised that the various types of swords we've defined have a chronological significance (with Type F [California] being earliest, Type I [Design Toscano] being most recent, and Type J [Italian eBay] being somewhere in the middle), it appears that there may be a trend of decreasing size of the Hercules figure through time. Look at this image of the sword hilts lined up against a straight edge:

Hilts of the California sword (left), the Italian eBay sword (middle), and the Design Toscano sword (right) compared directly.

Hercules gets shorter from left to right, which is what I think is an earliest-to-latest time ordering of these things. I had already noticed that the Design Toscano Hercules was smaller than the California Hercules, but I hadn't even thought about how the Type J would compare.

A decrease in overall detail from left to right is also noticeable in the line-up.

I'm not sure exactly how to explain the decrease in size, but it is intriguing. In craft traditions, a decrease in size through time of stylistic elements (i.e., parts of the design that are not stongly constrained by functional requirements) could be expected to be the natural result of accumulations in copy error. Generally, humans can't reproduce something exactly correctly by hand -- there's typically a +/- 5% error that isn't noticeable to the human brain or controllable based on our abilities. (Some researchers contend that a decrease in mean size is the expected outcome of accumulated copying error -- I've played around with that in some of my modeling work and found that the median drifts downward rather than the mean, but that's not super relevant here and it's been a long time since I thought about it.) But why would there be a trend toward decrease in size over time when a mold is used? I'm not sure why that would be, but it's interesting because it seems consistent with some kind of copy chain (i.e., copies made from copies) rather than copies made by reference to some original.

I'll have more to say about this later when I have some time to take a close look at all of these and fill in some blanks in the database.

25 Comments

Jonathan Feinstein

1/28/2016 01:21:46 pm

A simple explanation might be that the design has been copied multiple times, which I believe has been suggested before.

There are some minor, but noticeable differences in the details from one family of swords to the next, not counting the blades themselves, although the blades are evidential as well. The different markings on the blades, the different lengths and even shapes (in type P, was it?) clearly testify they do not all come from the same mold.

Certainly the Design Toscano model has a different mold (isn't it made in China? and also while you can cast brass or bronze in a mold made of soft firebrick - I have done that - you need something a bit less porous for cast iron) and I think it safe to say the others do too. We do not have any proof one way or the other (correct me if I am mistaken, please) that swords from one mold might have been used to make a new mold. The blade length differences even in the same sword family tend to suggest to me that the molds for the blades were made several times and since it seem that the blades were cast in one piece, that means the hilt itself was redone.

I can be completely wrong, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the hilts themselves are based on something that either had no blade at all or a blade that was broken, since the hilts are fairly similar.

I think the copy effect might come into play if the hilt sizes get larger with the newer pieces, though. AT least I can't see how they would get smaller.

As for the obviously smaller Design Toscano hilt, my guess is someone said, "Copy this" (possibly from a photograph or set of photographs and the fact the hilt size is as close to the others as it is might simply be that it was designed to fit a human hand that that was a mold-maker's guess as to what was average.

That might also explain other size differences, or else different copiers used slightly different dimensions. If the master used to make the mold was carved by hand, there would be differences.

Another possibility is thrift. A smaller sword or hilt means you use less metal. In one sword, the difference might seem small, but it depends on how many copies you are makin. Small differences in manufacturing costs add up, sometimes very rapidly.

Of course, these are all guesses. As I have said before, it is hard to tell from just a picture.

Matthew Boulanger

1/28/2016 02:25:04 pm

My guess is recasting: Copies made from molds that are made from copies that are made from molds that are made from copies that are made from molds made from copies....

I don't know about metals, but I've seen this in the Cosplay realm: Folks sell stormtrooper helmets, for example, that are cast from molds made by recasting someone else's helmet. That helmet was made using a mold created by recasting yet another helmet, etc., etc. The end result is a marked decrease in detail and size in very few (2-3) generations (depending of course on skill and resources) such that they are easily identifiable by folks who are obsessive about film-accurate details.

I would think the blade-shape and length differences are easy because there's no real details in the blade. As long as you've got a mold of the fancy handle, you could conceivable modify the blade portion of the mold to look however you want.

Rose McDonald

1/28/2016 03:01:48 pm

In the fabrication of multiple copies from a single pattern, size and/or volume and detail are decreased. The more copies made the smaller each succeeding batch is. An easy comparison is the cutting of multiple layers of a material for an object, shoes, trousers, widgets or fake antique swords. The same principle applies to making a copy from a copy from a copy et cetera. Detail and volume are lost. As seen in the blurring of detail between the California and the Design Toscano swords, especially along the edges of the hilts.

Paul Downing

1/28/2016 03:55:19 pm

Adam Savage gives an entertaining explanation near the end of this talk.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?autoplay=1&v=rEg-ZNB3qyI

Andy White

1/30/2016 06:17:31 pm

Thanks for the reminder of that Adam Savage video. I remember watching that a long time ago, but had totally forgotten about it. Great example.

Uncle Ron

1/28/2016 05:03:00 pm

The size reduction of an item made in a mold made from an original item works the same for metals and even porcelain and glass. The fake antiques market is rife with knock-off cast iron banks, ceramic cookie jars, pattern glass dinnerware, etc., which have been made from molds made from original antiques. There are publications which list the correct original dimensions to help collectors detect these fakes.

Uncle Ron

1/29/2016 08:57:03 am

Here is a chart showing the percentage of shrinkage of various casting metals.
http://www.calculatoredge.com/charts/mshrinka.htm
Brass shrinks 1.5%. Measuring the images on my monitor I get 6 9/16" for the California sword and 6 8/16" for the Italian eBay sword (from the center "rivet" head to the top of the bump on the log). That works out to one percent difference. More precise measurement of the actual hilts will give a better number.

Andy White

1/30/2016 06:19:31 pm

Thanks Ron - I hope you saw yesterday's post.

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/the-shrinking-hercules-some-quick-metrics

Peter Geuzen

1/28/2016 02:34:29 pm

Here's a comparison with the Nova Scotia, shadow correction added:

http://imgur.com/Z5mqG6

Jonathan Feinstein

1/28/2016 04:58:24 pm

I couldn't follow that link, but in response to the above;

The lessened details from the CA to Italian eBay swords certainly looks like "Copy-machine" effect, but I cannot see how a design would shrink in size that way. However, as I look at it, it occurs to me that the Design Toscano sword is a much more recent reproduction than the others. Not only might it be a recast, but it may be a 3D scan and print of an older blade (using a similar device to what Andy used and then the mold might have be made from that. The details, having been digitized, would not suffer from further copy-effect, but also would not get any better unless someone intentionally sought to add details, which they obviously did not do. This could also account for the change in size. Once digitized the print-out model (on a 3D printer, I conjecture) could be scaled down or up very easily with todays technology. Scaling down might have helped to cover the lack of details from the piece that was scanned (if scanned at all)

Btw, is it just the picture or does the head on the DT hilt turn as far to the figure's right as the other two?

Mike Morgan

1/28/2016 05:49:35 pm

"Btw, is it just the picture or does the head on the DT hilt turn as far to the figure's right as the other two?"

A comment on The Fake Hercules Sword Facebook page:
Joleen Greenland "Am I imagining things or is Hercules upper body getting less rotated as you go from left to right?"

Both observations look correct, but I believe these result from the camera placement or angle. Or it may be that swords have progressively "flatter" backsides with the California having a higher relief backside, or more bumps, if you will, causing it to be lifted off the surface more than the other 2 and the DT having the least causing it to lay the flattest. Note the marked shadowing of the California, less so on the Italian eBay, and very slight on the DT. And also how much more "bowlegged" Hercules is on the California, most likely because the sword is angled toward the pictures left because of the higher relief on the right backside.

Peter Geuzen

1/28/2016 07:25:01 pm

"I couldn't follow that link, but in response to the above;"

Just copy and paste the link into your address box (or in a new tab or new window's box)

Peter Geuzen

1/28/2016 07:31:31 pm

"Btw, is it just the picture or does the head on the DT hilt turn as far to the figure's right as the other two?"

Many, maybe all, seem to rock left or right a bit when put flat. See the lower res comparison in the last Swordgate Poster v3, from a couple days ago. The Cali in the Poster is looking more like the others, more to the centre than extreme left.

I'll add this higher res comparison to v4.

Jonathan Feinstein

1/29/2016 01:02:15 am

Peter, I did copy and paste the link. It brought me to the "Zoinks!" page where you show up at imgur if you use a wrong address. Just tried it again just to make sure. It might be my machine or a DNS issue via my ISP, though. It happens.

Jørgen T. Bøckman

1/29/2016 01:09:06 am

There are two reasons why cast metal copies are smaller than the original, and its's pretty simple: Temperature and drying.

Temperature: Metals expand at higher temperatures and shrinks at lower temperatures. The mold is made in room temperature (more or less) and is the same size as the original at that temperature (exception: see no. 2). The molten metal that is poured into the mold is at its highest volume when it starts to become solid, and then shrinks as it cools down. The mold will often crack because the cast object inside does no longer fit completely.

Drying: Molds can shrink too. Traditionally molds were made from clay that will shrink when they dry up. They must be completely dry when casting, or they can explode when they come in contact with the molten metal. However, today molds are usually made of sand binded with oil and do not need to dry. Hence they will not shrink.

Bob Jase

1/29/2016 08:12:04 am

On the other hand this could be evidence that some of these swords were submerged in the ocean off Oak Island. Cold water is known for causing shrinkage.

its been a long week

Jonathan Feinstein

1/29/2016 09:57:35 am

Yes, I keep my Hercules out of cold water for just that reason.

And yeah, it has been a long week

Mike Morgan

1/29/2016 12:14:04 pm

Hate to break it to you young pups, but older age can also contribute to shrinkage.

Jim

1/29/2016 11:51:02 am

I hate to go off topic here, but has anyone seen this latest headline from pulitizers website the history heretic ?

"Take A Close Look At History And See The Lies by History Heretic"

Lol,,,,

Jonathan Feinstein

1/29/2016 11:59:23 am

but we've already seen the lies by History Heretic... :-)

Rose McDonald

1/29/2016 12:53:16 pm

The "Commander" is still promoting himself as having an association with the Oak Island TV show. Otherwise, nothing new there.

Rose McDonald

1/29/2016 12:43:08 pm

Jim: I think I've been blocked from that site. Oh, the shame!
I'll try to take another look.

Mike

1/29/2016 07:05:37 pm

3 PHD'S watched the package being opened? Sounds like a conspiracy of academicians..... Were they all archaeologists - or even worse?

Andrew White

1/30/2016 06:20:54 pm

Archaeologists. The whole building is full of them.

KLAM

2/14/2016 09:17:01 pm

There is more history presented in this article than History Channel has televised in the last decade.

It's nice to finally get to see some science getting put to this. I know there is more going on in the Oak Island show than we see, but for some reason it's more important to talk about ghosts and templars and that BS.

It would be far better show if they focused on the methodolgy of the search and explained some of the technology being used. Marty Lagina and Tester aren't stupid people. But then I guess you couldn't have the narrator begin every sentence "Could it be...?".

The Incredible Shrinking Hercules?

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