Swordgate Poster, Version 5

9/15/2016

A day may come when Swordgate is over

When we are out of swords

And all analysis stops,

But it is not this day.

Peter Geuzen emailed me his latest #Swordgate poster (version 5), which includes updated information on Swords 1-16. There are at least two more out there that we haven't yet incorporated into our assemblage of Fake Hercules Swords, so this will not be the final poster. You can download the full size version here (click ‘Download This File’).

Here is what Geuzen has changed from the last version:

Enlarged printable size from 2’ X 3’ to 3’ X 4’(with expansion capability);
Added four new sword examples;
Fixed names of two existing swords;
Formalized and added Type CS;
Added Type J(r);
Revised and expanded the abstract text;
Revised 3D scans text;
Added text box for known original purchase locations and dates;
Added timeline graphic based on known purchase dates integrated with Type chronology;
Added Hypotheses section text;
Various graphic and alignment fixes/changes.

I haven't gone over it in detail, but it looks pretty nice to me. I need to make some time to add in the other known swords that are lurking around out there and update the database. That will happen some day, but it is not this day.

Enjoy Swordgate Poster Version 5!

42 Comments

Killbuck

9/15/2016 10:05:34 am

Hey, I got an idea.... Fakeherculesswords.com ... offering not only the swell poster, but letter openers, car air fresheners, refrigerator magnets (make that MAGICAL magnets), patches, pins, postcards and t shirts!!!

Jim

9/15/2016 05:53:29 pm

What a great idea, will we be able to Pre-Order ?

Killbuck

9/15/2016 06:03:15 pm

Great idea!

Jim

9/15/2016 09:19:50 pm

Excellent, If there is one thing I've learned from all this, it is that if you don't pre-order you may never get another opportunity to get the article. I pre-order everything now.

Gunn

9/16/2016 10:09:39 am

One time I didn't pre-order something, and it came anyway. Luckily, that only happened once in my entire lifetime.

Pablo

9/15/2016 10:05:52 am

Fantastic Peter! I love how you make room for swords 19 and 20 :D
Question: Why is the "Jasper hilt" not included? What I like about it is that it is very detailed. The other thing is that I keep thinking that the Sonja Sword (the wider one) is more an effect of the position of the camera and lens used for the photo; and I'm going to do a demonstration to prove it. (Or not).

Peter Geuzen

9/15/2016 10:21:58 am

We don't know the Group Type for the 'Jasper hilt' so for now it's on the sidelines. As Andy notes there are still a couple more he has info on so there will still be a need for another update. I just felt it had been so long that it was time to encapsulate all the main stuff that has happened in the last couple months.

Peter Geuzen

9/15/2016 10:15:55 am

Either Andy is losing it, or I am....here's the download link for full size:

http://www.filedropper.com/swordgateposterv5 > click ‘Download This File’ for full size 4.45mb jpeg version

Pablo

9/15/2016 10:17:13 am

I was gonna say that it would have been nice to get the big version by clicking on it :D

Andy White

9/15/2016 11:01:12 am

Sorry - I spaced. I've added a link to the post.

Adam Gallagher

9/15/2016 10:29:43 am

I'd love one on the wall in my garage (man-cave area). When this poster is completely complete, can i get one signed by all involved in the FakeHercSword Project (Peter, Andy and anyone else etc) ?

Pablo

9/15/2016 10:53:35 am

it would be great to bring one to Pulitzer and ask him to sign it!

Andy White

9/15/2016 11:01:52 am

Maybe he can circle the ones he thinks are "real" and explain how he knows.

Peterr Geuzen

9/15/2016 12:24:46 pm

We might be doing full rolls of wallpaper at some point, instead of posters.

Denise

9/15/2016 01:38:16 pm

It's beautiful! Wonderfully depicted.

I've outlined some of this sword gate stuff to my husband who has studied and made replicas of historical swords (with actual period style equipment and forge, none of that propane stuff and power hammers) that have been used by reenactors, movies, and museums (one was also made as gift to the Kind of Spain from the City of St. Augustine during the Columbus Quincentennial). Basically he's confused that there ever was a debate. If it were an actual Roman sword it would never had been made in Bronze in the first place, they were using steel (probably mild steel), which cancels the very idea of cast sword at all. Ferrous sword iron/steel blades have to be forged (unless you are making some kind of weird wall hanger art sword, but it wouldn't be usable).

Bronze swords were cast but they needed additional work to make a functional sword out of the casting, and none of these show any attempt in that direction (they are all unfinished pieces, showing all the mold and/or imperfections of possible sand casting). Before I even mentioned half of the great research that has been done here, or even the Toscano connection (and as a researcher, I do love the thoroughness of this work), he was already muttering "sounds like a faked antiqued decorative wall hanger to me, probably like the stuff in Toscano".

It reminded him of the time he went into the pawn shop, saw a reproduction flintlock pistol on the wall with a price tag for $800 in the 80s. His reaction was to tell the owner that he could buy a new one for $150. Store owner tells him that it is an actual 18th century pistol. Husband gently tries to him that was impossible because 1. Japan was stamped on the lock plate (Japan massed produced most of the reproduction pistols used by reenactors from the Bi-Centennial to the 1980s, and Japan never had flintlock pistols that were in that form in the 18th century) and 2) there were clearly modern screws holding the metal furniture of gun in place. Store owner gets highly irate (I think he got ripped off) and refuses to believe. Hubby just shrugs and leaves.

When I get home, I must show him your wonderful poster. Hubby and I aren't really surprised by the way some people act, but we don't understand the thought processes behind a lot of stuff. Sword Gate has been an example of this. I like a good debate and Andy you and your cohorts have shown how to proceed in such manner. The so-called "offended" party hasn't the slightest notion that you have defeated him in the most methodical way possible. Good show.

Pablo

9/15/2016 04:10:07 pm

Pulitzer claims that the sword that was seen on the show has not seams (therefore it was not molded) and I've seen some of his followers saying that the sword was replaced, as in the one tested by Dr. Brousseau was not the original one.

Peter Geuzen

9/15/2016 06:33:47 pm

His own pictures in his own garbage sword report show the filed down seam burs. The scenes shot at St. Mary's show the same sword and the same seam, as the scenes shot in the War Room.

Denise

9/16/2016 11:01:52 am

No matter the manufacturing technique this sword is simply unusable as a weapon, there's no pommel behind the handle (I don't think that handle would be very comfortable) or similar device to balance the blade. I guess you could bludgeon somebody with it.....but not usable for swordplay.

Jonathan E. Feinstein

9/16/2016 12:57:04 pm

Fist and most important. Great Job Peter. I look forward to the wallpaper edition!

@Denise: If my Design Toscano version of the sword is any indication, it is an incredibly uncomfortable hilt to hold. BY far one of the worst I have ever handled,

The only vaguely comfortable grip I can get on it is a sort of modified "Three-finger Grip" There are some hilts which the holder is expected to hold with only thumb, middle, ring, and little fingers. The index finger wraps around and in front of the guard (where the blade meets the hilt). Such sword hilts are easy to recognize as there is not enough room to get your entire hand on the handle. The use of a three-fingered grip also pre-supposes the wielder would be using a style of fighting in which the guard would not be used to catch an opponent's blade (FTR, this guard, if on a real sword, probably would not be used that way in any case)

In this case I could not get my index finger entirely around what might be a guard (the part with the lions), but managed to loop the finger around one lion's neck. However, the length of Hercules' body is much longer than one normally intended for a three-fingered grip, so I doubt that was intended (assuming these Fake Hercules swords have a real original somewhere in their past - which I am sort of doubting now)

As for the balance: The balance of a weapon is certainly to personal tastes, but the DT sword (is that Type T?) is far more hilt heavy than any real sword I have had in my hands. The DT sword, however has a very short blade. The longer types will be more blade heavy. In my experience, I have tended to prefer the balance point to be about three inches in front of the guard on a broadsword, some might prefer it as far out as five inches and some as short a distance as an inch and a half. A lot depends on your fighting style and strength. The further out the balance point is, the more effective the weight of the sword is when impacting a target (ie, it hits harder), but that also makes it slower to recover from a stroke with the sword, Shorted means you recover faster, but the blow will not land with as much force.

Given the balance of the DT sword, the fighter would actually have the sword working against him unless he/she chose to hold it as far back on the handle as possible and even then it is not particularly comfortable.

My conclusion was that even if these FHS blades are based on an original from some time in the past, it probably was never intended at an actual weapon. Meanwhile, I wait to learn whether or not I am correct.

Peter Geuzen

9/17/2016 09:11:07 am

Denise & Jonathan – Your points are well made and I don’t think we are under any illusions at this point that any of the database examples were meant to be real swords or semi-accurate reproductions of a real sword. If you go back through previous blog posts in Andy’s Swordgate category there has been much coverage of the lack of authentic sword details. Nonetheless these objects are still crude representations of a sword shape, so from Day 1 we have just kept calling them swords. The way this whole thing started and thus the name of the debunking, Swordagate, pay homage to the original claim of a real sword. In the poster I’ve used some wording to reinforce the souvenir and artifact characterization that we have clearly come to realize. I think however that the next version of the poster can certainly reinforce this a bit more. I think we have solved the 'how' question (i.e., how they were made) but there is still a mystery here regarding the origin story, with the who, what, where, and when questions yet to be fully answered.

Jonathan E Feinstein

9/17/2016 12:24:08 pm

Peter,

I think it is fair to call these swords even though I think most of us agreed early on that none of them were functional weapons (well, maybe as a means of blunt-force trauma?). They are meant to look like swords, and calling them :"Fake Hercules Sword-like Objects" is a bit cumbersome. Then again I always thought the "Fake" referred to their status as swords. The figure seems to be a fairly authentic Hercules, (although that brings another thought to mind, below) in that he has most of the correct attributes for Hercules.

I think my one enduring curiosity on this issue is "just where did these swords come from?" Were they the complete invention of someone in the 19th or 20th Century? Was the Hercules element from some other object? Or was there an actual sword with the figural hilt of Hercules? (possibly one with a broken (fullered?)blade which might be why the seeming earliest examples, like the California and Sonja swords have those fullered sections while seeming later copies do not). Or something else?

Anyway, my newer thought involves the art of the figural hilt itself. As I said the figure has some of Hercules common attributes, most notably the lion skin. But I have been trying to figure out the log he is holding overhead. I know some have said that from some angles it might look like a club, but I haven't seen that resemblance. The legend is that Hercules made his club from a thick olive branch (that would be a very heavy and effective club, btw) and then used that club to kill the Nemean Lion. In this case he is already wearing the lion's skin, so that log might not actually be his club or else the artisan who designed it got the order of the story wrong. Alternatively the artist envisioned the club as a thick branch from which smaller branches and leaves had been trimmed, but not one that had been further shaped so as to form a handle. Of course, artists have been getting depictions of ancient gods and heroes wrong for a very long time, so I doubt it serves as evidence of an apparent age of the pieces or their origin. It was just a detail I wanted to share.

Pewter Geuzen

9/17/2016 03:56:31 pm

Jonathan - His second labour was the Lernaean Hydra, and he had already killed the Nemean Lion in the first labour so he is often shown wearing the skin and swinging a club in the second labour. The club and lion skin being shown together in the same depiction is actually OK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules#/media/File:Antonio_del_Pollaiolo_-_Ercole_e_l%27Idra_e_Ercole_e_Anteo_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

GEE

9/15/2016 05:28:16 pm

Love this I just saved it to my desk top... awesome work everyone!

RiverM

9/15/2016 09:28:01 pm

The Periodic Table of Ulfberht Destroyers

Gizmodo will surely in 2019 vote the Gold Roman Hercules sword, that points true North, found in Nova Scotia, story to be the worst invention of the "2010s"decade.

Frioacero

9/16/2016 03:38:06 am

It´s so fun to see my sword on the poster!!!
Good work!

Pablo

9/18/2016 11:24:22 am

Thanks so much for all the information you provided!

peterkirchmeir

9/16/2016 06:49:44 am

WOW! Lovely poster. I have been following this sword affair with cutting interest. My keen interest is permitting me to cut away much misinformation; lop off disingenious excuses; sever ties with fringe topics and simply keep me informed.

Thanks, Andy and company for all the research and compiling.

Gunn

9/16/2016 10:33:31 am

Great-looking poster, and very colorful!

Though I somewhat question the singular, long-term value of exposing a fraud by concentrating on one arena of cheap, fake artifacts, I can see how focusing-in on one arena of fake artifacts can be a good role-model for focusing-in on other subjects as well, even some not considered as "fake."

Of course, right now I'm imaging a colorful, richly-detailed poster showing more clearly than ever the various facets and ramifications of stoneholes in rocks, as we are now beginning to better understand them. Yes, many comparisons of details, such as has been done with these otherwise mundane-seeming swords. They have been nicely shown as a colorful subject; I now wish and hope the same might be done for our mundane-seeming, lowly stoneholes. Just a fleeting thought.

Did you all see the recent discovery of this 1,000-year old sword? Now this is what I'm talking about....

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-37285805

Andy White

9/16/2016 03:27:52 pm

Adam,

I appreciate your support and empathize with your frustration. This post isn't the place for those comments about your 2014 story, however, so I removed them.

Adam Gallagher

9/16/2016 06:15:27 pm

Right on, Andy. You did ask, but ok. Thanks for your time.

Adam Gallagher

9/16/2016 06:16:36 pm

Just delete them all, Andy. Thanks.

Adam Gallagher

9/16/2016 06:58:13 pm

Oh... i see you deleted your own comment where you asked about the 2014 story... interesting, Andy. I should have known.

Thanks again for your time.

Andy White

9/16/2016 07:14:41 pm

I deleted thd others now. I left them to begin with because they were more-or-less on topic. You mentioned an "article" so I asked about it because I didn't know what you were talking about. I'm interested in the story, but I don't think this is the place to tell it. That's all.

Adam Gallagher

9/16/2016 08:01:25 pm

I understand, it's okay. I agree that i gave a heck of a lot more than the article you asked about lol, no doubt about that. No hard feelings either way. I have a ton of peanut butter sandwiches to make for some homeless folks that live (or try to "live" i guess...) a few miles from me near downtown. Good talking to you again, Sir. And I'm sorry i got upset to see my comments gone towards the end there &c. You'd have to do a lot more than delete a few of my comments for me to stop liking you, you're a good person, surely. Thanks, Andy.

Andy White

9/18/2016 08:09:38 am

Fair enough. As I said, I understand the frustration and I know there is plenty to be said. #Swordgate was an epic win for the good guys, and I'm trying to keep the energy in these posts about the ongoing desire to answer the question of where these things actually came from.

Only Me

9/18/2016 08:59:38 am

Andy, I'm thinking Peter's Swordgate poster would fit right in with your classroom. It would serve as a perfect example of why it's so important for your students to develop healthy skepticism and critical thinking skills.

Adam Gallagher

9/18/2016 08:42:04 pm

You&co have done fantastic regarding the sword. It's absolutely an epic and thorough win for the good guys thanks to you all, and the parade continues. I'm proud to watch it progress each day. You know by now that my heart lies with the refund issue etc, but i do cheer you&co on, obviously lol. Good folks, doing good things. I've said it once, and I've no problem saying it again... "Get his a**, Andy !"

Thanks.

Frioacero

9/20/2016 02:59:35 pm

Mr. White, I think you should what Killbuk says. It is probably the best way to find out the origins of the fake swords.
As soon as you start selling merchandise you will probably be sued by whoever started making the original swords, and we would know at last, who, when, where, why, and how (They would have to explain it in their claim)
:D

Pablo

1/30/2017 10:22:10 am

lol!

Graham

1/8/2017 09:58:15 pm

I just tried to download the full size poster but the link no longer works.

Andy White

1/9/2017 06:19:40 am

Thanks. I shall inquire with the management.

Peter?

Peter Geuzen

1/9/2017 06:29:42 am

Reloaded

http://www.filedropper.com/swordgateposterv5

It times out if downloads stop for a few days, or something like that, but it's free

Swordgate Poster, Version 5

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