Research Hint: Writing “Minoan” on Photographs of Native American Remains Does Not Actually Prove They Are Minoan

6/3/2015

If you're a writer, you may have noticed a recent shortage in the supply of capital letters and exclamation points. All good scientists know that correlation does not equal causation, but I would like to go out on a limb and propose an explanation: J. Hutton Pulitzer (aka TreasureForce Commander) has used them all.

Okay, that's a bit of an overstatement. He didn't use them all, just more than his fair share. The occasion was his announcement that he has proved that "Minoans discovered America 4000 years BEFORE Columbus!" (emphasis in original). Pulitzer's liberal use of all caps and exclamation points, apparently to indicate the importance of his claims and communicate his significant enthusiasm for them, has left the rest of us a little short. This post will be necessarily conservative in its use of those two precious commodities.

You should look at Pulitzer's post and decide if you think the monopolization of the supply of capital letters and exclamation points was justified.

As you might guess, I'm not impressed.

My first reaction as I skimmed through Pulitzer's post about his "audit archives research" on May 24th was "wtf?" (normally that would be in caps, but there's a shortage on you know). He posts some pictures of some oxhide ingots from the Uluburun shipwreck (as his "comparative" sample) and then 16 photos of features and artifacts from archaeological sites in Tennessee and Kentucky, all now labeled "Minoan" by Pulitzer. The photos appear to have come from the WPA Archaeological Photo Archives of the McClung Museum of Natural History and Culture at the University of Tennessee. Obviously, whoever decided to post all these photographs online really dropped the ball on keeping all this "forbidden history" hidden from the public. Maybe there was a memo missed somewhere.

Too late now: the cat's out of the bag. (I really feel like that statement would have popped more with some exclamation points, but somebody hogged them all. At least there's still italics.)

Copper artifact from Drake Mound, KY.

Pulitzer shows more photos of European oxhide ingots, then a bunch more photos from Tennessee: excavated wooden post structures, pit features, etc. Then some unlabeled pictures of pottery, some other pictures copied out of books, more stuff, some other stuff . . . it just goes on and on. He even reproduces the photograph that I took of a page from Betty Sodders' book for a post about the alleged oxide ingot of Lake Gogebic, Michigan. Then he shows us the same "Minoan large ox hide ingot" that he's already showed us. I guess he really likes that one. I'll go ahead and show it to you also. There (here's the source).

The artifact from Drake Mound, as well as several of the other artifacts shown by Pulitzer, do have the same basic shape as some of the European oxhide ingots: roughly rectangular with four concave sides. But are they same size? Do they weigh the same? Are they made from pounded copper or are they cast? And why do some of them have pairs of holes drilled in them? Do any European oxhides have holes drilled in them?

Those are questions that someone who was actually doing research would attempt to address. If it were me, I would start with size: how big are the copper reels that Pulitzer says are actually cast oxhide ingots, and how do those dimensions compare with those documented for European oxhide ingots? For a moment I thought about doing that comparison myself, but then I decided I've got better things to do with my time and the person making the claim should do some work. I'll help out by pointing him to this source: Copper Oxhide Ingot Marks: A Database and Comparative Analysis. It's an M.A. Thesis by Alaina M. Kaiser from 2013. There are metric data in Appendix IV. You're welcome.

What about dates from any of the features or structures that are claimed to be Minoan? Any information on those?

Feature from the Charles Lea Farm site, TN.

The features from the Charles Lea Farm site that Pulitzer labels "Minoan Ox Hide Ingot Mold" are unusual. I'll reproduce one of those photos (source) also so you can see it: it appears to be some kind of basin-shaped feature with four incurvate sides and elongated corners. Yes, it's shaped similarly to an ox hide ingot. I honestly don't know what it is (or in what context it was found at the site) and I would be curious to hear from archaeologists who might know more about these. Woodland or Mississippian? It's unfortunate that there's no scale with the photo. I don't know if there's any kind of written report that describes these features in more detail (there appear to have been at least two at the site).

Writing "Minoan" on a WPA photograph does not actually mean that one has proven that the remains are Minoan. It only means that one has photo editing software, which is all that is required to make an assertion. If I were to write "idiot" on a photograph of a person, for example, I have only asserted that the person is an idiot: I would still have to demonstrate idiocy in order to prove my claim. I think I would do that by paying more attention to the question marks (you'll notice there are still plenty of those to go around) than to the exclamation points. With all the melodrama and hullabaloo surrounding the fantastic assertions of Pulitzer about "forbidden history" and his "smoking gun archaeological evidence," you would think there would be more indications of effort.

At the end of the piece, Pulitzer is quoted as saying “If there ever was a better open and shut archaeological case this discovery is it!” I'm not sure what the case is supposed to "better" than, but I can list a lot of things it's worse than. I wish I had a spare exclamation point to put there.

Addendum (6/4/2015): This post has been up since yesterday, and I have a couple of things to add to it.

First, on the initial reaction to the piece. As soon as this was posted, I was told by some fans of "forbidden history" that I should be focusing on the substance of Pulitzer's "theory" rather than simply attacking his style. If you read the piece carefully, you'll find that my major point is that there IS NO SUBSTANCE to attack (Hey look - the drought in capital letters has eased up! And so has the shortage of exclamation points!!). You'll see I never actually said Pulitzer's "theory" is wrong: I said I wasn't impressed with what he presents. He didn't even do the simplest things he could have done to actually make a case based on evidence, basically relying almost completely on assertions (bolstered by lots of exclamation points and capital letters - those seemed to comprise the main forms of support). I pointed out a couple of things that would be easy steps to take if one wanted to present a case that the Tennessee and Kentucky materials were actually made by Minoans. The photo of the alleged "Minoan Ox Hide Ingot" from the Drake Mound in Kentucky has a scale with it, for example, and measurements of that artifact could be compared with are metric data available for ox hides from Europe. Why not do a comparison? As I said in the piece, I thought about doing it myself, but it's really not my job: it's the job of the person making the claim. You want to claim something from Kentucky is an "exact match" to something from Europe? Prove it! My point is that he doesn't even try to prove it, he just proclaims it. The piece was about the silliness of making assertions without putting even a minimum amount of effort into trying to back them up. Pushing the "!" key is easy, doing the other stuff is a bit harder.

Second, interested archaeologists and others with more knowledge than me about these kinds of copper artifacts have started pointing out publications that are available online that contain useful information. I thought I would provide links to those here so that anyone who's interested can go and see for themselves:

Powell, J. W. 1894. Twelfth Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution. Washington, D. C.: Government Printing Office. [pp. 426-427 illustrate a hammered copper gorget that is the shape of an "ox hide" but measures only 3.5 x 3.75 inches and is 1/8 inch thick].
Trevalyn, Amelia M. 2004. Miskwabik, Metal of Ritual: Metallurgy in Precontact Eastern North America. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky.

Greg Little

6/3/2015 07:29:03 am

Hmm. There is a "run" on the TVA excavation results too! (I had an exclamation point in storage.) On the 31st of May I posted an article about the "Egyptian Temple" excavated from a mound along with a couple photos lifted from the same reports. I think that great minds think alike: http://apmagazine.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=670

I don't think any of the skeletal remains are still in museums.

6/4/2015 12:09:30 am

Excellent write up Greg. Interesting how those "standing stones" turned out to be cedar posts. It's about like the copper armor stories here in WV...not quite as mystical if you really follow things to the source. Still a lot of things to find out about the mound building cultures though.

Andy White

6/4/2015 12:14:33 am

Hey wait . . . we're not going to let details get in the way of a good story, are we? I'm glad you posted your article here - I wasn't aware of it, and I don't think the the "forbidden history" crew was either: https://www.facebook.com/groups/CopperCulture/permalink/1845867585637412/?comment_id=1846241068933397&offset=0&total_comments=18¬if_t=group_comment_mention

DAVID TOWLE

6/3/2015 10:33:17 am

I,m with you on this . Someone did not get his hands dirty and do the proper investigating, and work, not just cut and paste someone elses work and then take the credit for it. He should have gone into the field and dug and found the proof he seeks.

6/3/2015 10:39:14 pm

The Adena mound building culture definitely took a liking to that copper reel/ox hide shape. There are several in museums around the Ohio Valley. One was found just a few minutes from where I live in the Kanawha Valley. The Minoan ingot comparison argument is new to me but Ive read several claims where the tiny copper gorget, found here in WV, was referred to as "copper armor" lol. Most are in the three and a half by four inch range...that's some pretty small armor $!$. Here's the link to a Smithsonian Bureau of Ethnology Report illustrating and describing the size of the one found here in the Kanawha Valley and as an added bonus you also get a "giant skeleton" (scare quotes) report on the same page.
Disclaimer:
It is next to impossible to look into the Native American history of West Virginia without running into these reports of Large skeleton finds.

https://books.google.com/books?id=L9wRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=about+it+were+the+remains+of+black+walnut+bark&source=bl&ots=DTIsvjEkhf&sig=w1LypVeAxVhQG5-Atia4cF8vg20&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UkRwVf27G8GWyAT8s4PYBg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=about%20it%20were%20the%20remains%20of%20black%20walnut%20bark&f=false

Andy White

6/4/2015 12:08:58 am

Thanks for the reference, JM. I've added a section at the end of the piece and linked to it for convenience.

SouthCoast

6/12/2015 02:39:36 pm

I wonder if the "hide" shape both in Minoan culture and Adena culture might not just be an instance of parallel cultural evolution. Perhaps, in both cultures, as in Colonial America, certain hides (ox for the Minoans, deer, elk, moose, or bison for the Adena) were traded with a certain established value fixed to them (e.g., "five bucks for a keg of whiskey".) In which cases, then, copper, being of an excellent trade value, was cast in the form of a hide because that signalled its use and worth. No idea how this could be proven, or even if it is worth being proven, but thought I'd cast it out there for consideration. (OTOH, could any metallurgists out there address the question of whether there might be a material advantage in casting copper in what appears to be a hide shape. Would it, for example, cool without cracking along the margins, etc.?)

6/13/2015 10:40:03 pm

The material advantage to the oxide shape could totally be for ease of transport. Copper is extremely heavy. Each leg section would allow for a good hand hold...sort of like the old timey stretchers. One person in the front one person in the back. It may just be a coincidence that it took on the ox hide shape, may be a case of function over form. But it does make me wonder if the story of the Golden Fleece could have originally centered around a hide shaped gold ingot :)

Roger L. Jewell link

4/9/2016 02:55:10 pm

I have heard a lot of comments about the Newberry tablet and ancient Copper trade. But It is obvious most people are not aware why they have not heard of this trade. The "Powell Doctrine" of the Smithsonian had a lot to do about why this all sounds so strange. John Wesley Powell who's father was a Methodist Minester in Ill. During the strugle with the Early Morman church, issued a statement in a letter to his associates. dated July, 1880. In it he states, It is "illigetimate" to entertain any line of analysis which attempts to connect any artifact found in the new world with any "peoples" or so called races of antiquity in other portions of the world. As you can see when a key figure in the recording of our history refuses to allow any proof be recorded things can get very confused. This can all be varified on the web if you just look.

The Newberry tablet does exist. It is only a few pieses of poorly baked clay. But the photo I have on my site I got from the Smithsonian myself. I had to buy the rights to use it. Examined the original and handled the folder it was in marked "Michigan Fakes".

I worked on this mystery for 14 years before I wrote my book. I have sold over 4000 copies and only one Archeologist has ever talked to me about it. Not so from the people who live in Michigans UP. They know their history. I was there the day the locals showed Scott Walter the ship carving. The trouble with his TV Show they never give credit to the real researches. This makes their work look like crap. Some times it is if the writers want to spice it up a little.

Than bloggers for the most part who don't spend much time on the subject just put in their tow cents. Sometime they have good date and sometime not. It's the problem with the medium.

If you really want to understand the extent of this coverup I could give you a lot of books to read, but mine or Fred Rydholm my mentor should be enough.

It's a fun story, You can find artifacts just north of New York, or Canoe 7 miles into The Superior National Forest Wilderness and visit an ac\tual dolman with "B" "L" written on it when you get back and tell me about it.

Roger L. Jewell

Doug Weller link

6/28/2016 07:04:11 am

If you ask people at the University of Michigan about this they'll point you to Susan Martin - below is a link to her article (on my website with her consent)

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan
The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2-3):119-138.
Susan R. Martin 1995

DAVID TOWLE

2/14/2017 04:03:50 pm

The information Hutton puts out there is fake history. The ox hide molds belong to the Yucci Native Americans and are for the Sacred Fire ceremony. The photo of the fire pit shows a pit about eight feet long by four feet high. If you made a copper ox hide in this pit , a man could not pick it up. It is a shame we are now bombarded with fake news and fake history.

Roger Jewell link

2/25/2017 03:43:34 pm

The question of Oxhides as proof is a poor substitute for much of the real proof that exists. There is a lot of good proof out there. Much of it just gives a small hint. It is only with an extensive study that many real answers are ever discovered. "Ancient mines of Kitchi-gummi" Roger Jewell

Loren

4/5/2018 11:47:30 am

The Lea farm "ingot mold" is quite interesting. White can't explain it, other than admitting it does indeed look like an oxide mold, but doesn't let that interrupt his flow of ridicule. Yeah, Pulitzer went over the top, but White is hanging out in the gutter.

Loren

4/6/2018 01:21:49 pm

People like White should get their laughs in while they can.

Kind of sickening to think he's bringing up a new generation of smug know-it-alls who can't see a forest for the trees.

If academics were like White were as determined to find truth as they are to enforce orthodoxy and prop up their precious accepted narratives, perhaps there wouldn't be so many people rejecting them and looking to alternatives.

Auto-correct got me on "oxides/ox hides".

Andy White

4/6/2018 02:11:37 pm

Blah blah blah . . . please point out to me what I've written that is factually inaccurate. Please provide what you think is actually good evidence of the Minoans in the New World.

Loren

4/6/2018 05:36:53 pm

Yes, "blah, blah, blah", I'm sure you've heard all that before. I wonder why?

As a card-carrying member of the hoi-polloi, I will not presume to present evidence to one so esteemed as yourself, knowing that better men than I, such as Jewell, have presented their evidence to no avail.

I will say, however, that acedemia's current position of "we don't know where the copper went, we only know where it *didn't* go", is laughable. An absurdity. But, institutionalized absurdities will always have plenty of accredited adherents getting pats on the back for perpetuating them, no? Sit. Good boy.

If the astronomical amounts of missing Superior copper and astromical amounts of un-accounted for Old World copper fit the existing narrative, academia would take a Michigan origin as a given. But, it doesn't fit, so here we are. Absurdity.

How convenient that every artifact indicating pre-Columbian non-Norse contact is a fraud? Every one. All of them. Yup, that one, too. That was easy.

How convenient that... spoiler alert!... there *is no* "Forbidden Archaeology"! There's no politics in archaeology, just the facts, ma'am! Again, laughable. I guess anthrpology majors will believe that?

I'm sure you esteemed professors will someday figure out where all that Bronze Age copper came from and where all that Michigan copper went. It's a real puzzler, I'll admit.

Andy White

4/6/2018 05:42:04 pm

So a short version of what you posted is "I actually have no evidence." You can't point to a single piece of solid archaeological evidence to back up your claims about Minoans. Let me know when you find a real artifact, or feature, or something other than a carved rock or fake tablet. Somehow they mined all that copper without breaking a single.pot, building a single house, or cooking a single meal. Remarkable!

Jim

4/6/2018 07:42:35 pm

Jeez,,, Loren's arguments are as stale as the sandwich in his holster.

Peter

4/6/2018 08:59:34 pm

Putz has regurgitated his repetitive Minoan repetition on Facebook recently, because he has nothing new or better or smarter or truthful or factual or physical evidence based to do. Hence I assume somebody capable of using Google found this. The Minoans wore the same hats as the Mi'kmaq don't you know, so yep it's breakthrough time.

Loren

4/7/2018 06:27:16 am

Useless wankers perpetuating the stalest arguments of all and impotent to explain the greatest mystery in North America, while ridiculing those who propose the most logical destination for the copper.

Put some clothes on that emperor already.

Jim

4/7/2018 08:18:53 am

Everyone knows the Aliens bought the copper, it's just that the Smithsonian won't allow us to tell anyone.

Andy White

4/7/2018 03:32:53 pm

Right, Loren, it's like I said: you have no evidence. Produce some or move along, please.

Loren

4/7/2018 07:56:12 pm

I think your concerns about food and habitation are adequately addressed in pages 274-283 in "Michigan Copper: The Untold Story" by Fred Rydholm.

Jim

4/8/2018 11:38:37 am

Sounds like a winner of a book by Fred Rydholm.
I like how all the topics are listed below the chapters:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91G07BdBZQL.jpg

Wayne May, Dr Fell
More on Egyptians in America
Another Professor Discovers Evidence of Romans in Texas
Yes Israelites also came
More Irish and Vikings in America

And apparently the food must have come from the "Mysterious garden beds of Michigan"

It's all there, the Kensington Runestone, the mystery stone, Burrows cave, the Newberry Tablet, the Beardmore Relics even pyramids in China.
And only $119 from Amazon
How is this not being taught at Universities ?

Loren

4/9/2018 05:23:43 pm

Considering Fred Rydholm probably knew more about copper country than any man alive and spent almost his entire life working on the question of the mines, I think one would be wise to hear him out.

New copies go for $50, it's the used copies that are selling for over $100. Go figure. Just don't let anyone catch you reading it.

Loren

4/9/2018 06:38:37 pm

I guess new copies are over $100, too, on Amazon. At any rate, this site is selling them for $60, and The Magazine Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken has them for $50.

http://www.calumetcopper.com/books-dvds/regional-histories/michigan-copper-the-untold-story/

Jim

4/9/2018 08:42:07 pm

Loren:

"spent almost his entire life working on the question of the mines,"

Knew him well did you ? Perhaps you should get them to change his obituary, as that's not what it says.

Loren

4/11/2018 06:28:22 am

Btw, if you're concerned about the cost of books, there are places that let you borrow them for free. There's probably even one nearby.

Loren

4/9/2018 09:12:53 pm

Nope, never met him. Wish I had. He started writing the mines book after the regional histories, yeah, but work doesn't begin with the writing, does it?

Mike Morgan

4/9/2018 10:32:41 pm

Loren,

" .. the astronomical amounts of missing Superior copper and astromical amounts of un-accounted for Old World copper ... "

Please cite some CREDIBLE sources including figures for this.

Thank you.

Jim

4/10/2018 03:33:32 am

Loren:

"yeah, but work doesn't begin with the writing, does it? "

???,, No, you flat out lied to promote your argument.

Loren

4/10/2018 07:31:05 am

Jim, I suggest you read his book. He had been exploring Isle Royale since childhood, and he worked the rest of his life to understand the questions the mines raise. I don't understand why you're so hung up on that statement. I see nothing inaccurate about it, and you haven't read his book.

Loren

4/10/2018 07:39:21 am

Mike Morgan:

"Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior", Charles Whittlesey, 1863

"Prehistoric Copper Mining in the Lake Superior Region", Drier and DuTemple, 1961

Loren

4/10/2018 08:05:07 am

Regarding the garden beds, they are apparently documented in an atlas with survey work by W.B. Hinsdale (University of Michigan), according to James Donahue, though he gives no additional information on it. I'm guessing he's referring to "Archaeological Atlas of Michigan", Wilbert B. Hinsdale, University of Michigan Press, 1931

There's also apparently an 1878 paper by surveyor/geologist Bela Hubbard, again according to James Donahue.

Bella Hubbard's papers are in the Bentley Historical Library at the University of Michigan.

I haven't seen the sources of either of these, so I can't confirm.

Loren

4/10/2018 08:41:35 am

I'm sure Jewell could provide more sources regarding the amounts, and their relative merits, though I realize he's a heretic to be treated like a leper.

I've never met or spoken with Jewell, either, btw.

Jim

4/10/2018 10:28:06 am

Loren:

" I don't understand why you're so hung up on that statement. I see nothing inaccurate about it, "

It speaks to your credibility and your willingness to stretch the truth for your own agenda.
From his Obit:

"In his later years, Rydholm turned his attention to the region's mining and mineral heritage, hoping to confirm his theory that the natural native copper endemic to Isle Royale and the Keweenaw Peninsula was a focal point of contact and trade in the ancient world.

https://localwiki.org/marquettemi/C._Fred_Rydholm

Loren,,," spent almost his entire life working on the question of the mines"

While he way have had an interest in the copper, he hardly spent almost his entire life working on the question of the mines.

Now onto your reference of
"Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior", Charles Whittlesey, 1863"
Here ya go!

https://archive.org/stream/ancientminingons01whit/ancientminingons01whit_djvu.txt

Please point out the exact passages which support your statement.

"" .. the astronomical amounts of missing Superior copper and astromical amounts of un-accounted for Old World copper ... "

Thanks.

Loren

4/10/2018 10:46:20 am

I'm afraid you've reached the end of this peasant's limited knowledge in that direction. From here your on your own. Jewell can help you, just make sure to keep your distance, don't let him touch you, and don't let any of your friends know about it.

Fred Rydholm can speak for himself from this point, if you can set aside your arrogance long enough to listen.

Jim

4/10/2018 11:09:10 am

Are you kidding me ??
You put forth "Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior" as evidence but you can't find the evidence in it ? You expect me to find the evidence ? Am I getting this right ?

Loren

4/10/2018 06:25:15 pm

I think you're right, that's an incorrect reference.

Drier and Dutemple have estimates, though. I don't have a page number.

Chapter 1 of Jewell's "Ancient Mines..." goes into detail on the different estimates. References from that book:

More recent estimates from "Great Lakes Copper: Still Missing" from NEARA Journal, Volume XXX, No. 3 & 4 Winter/Spring 1996.

Jewell also refers to "Lake Superior Copper and Indians" by J.B. Griffin of U Michigan, Ann Arbor, which he says is "the only on the ground study concerning the volume of ore extracted to my knowledge."

Drier and Dutemples estimates are addressed by Jewell also.

Jim

4/10/2018 07:47:22 pm

C'mon, they pulled those estimates out of thin air. If we assume, it there were, if this, if that.
For instance "If one assumes a pit of 20 feet in diameter by 30 feet deep, 1000 to 1200 tons of ore was removed per pit" If, if ,if, ya right, the dimensions they give equals less than 350 cubic yards. The weight they give would equal 800 - 950 cubic yards of gravel. They are not even close to a realistic weight.
Then they guess at 5%-15% copper. Ya right.
Then they guess at how many pits.

Jim

4/10/2018 09:17:03 pm

https://copperculture.homestead.com/

"The estimates put forth by Drier and Du Temple are easily debunked. They start with the errroneous and unsupported assumption that the average pit was 20 feet in diameter and 30 feet deep. An average diameter and depth based upon what sample of copper pits? No study of these ancient copper pits has ever determined an average size. Few, if any, pits have ever been reported as deep as 30 feet, (and this is Drier & Du Temples average depth, so some must be even deeper), when in fact many ancient pits or trenches barely scratched the surface by more than a few feet. Twenty feet seems to be the limit on depth of known ancient copper pits and these are few in number. "

"Their assumption of 5000 pits has no supporting documentation as a comprehesive study of the number of pits has never been undertaken and published. "

" All of the numbers offered up by Drier and Du Temple are based mainly on conjecture, with no basis in fact."

Loren

4/11/2018 06:12:58 am

So far you and Jewell are in complete agreement. Clearly you haven't bothered to read his book, either.

Jim

4/11/2018 07:45:29 am

Ya, cause I want to read books that you recommend, Like Fred "The Romans Were in Texas" Rydholm.

http://www.jewellhistories.com/ancient_mines.htm

"Copper Culture
The ancient Copper culture was made up of hunter gather people. They had no motive to remove large chunks of pure copper."

" No developed cultures were here to use the copper. In addition the copper is missing."

No freaking motive !!! Hows this tor motive:

https://copperculture.homestead.com/moreartifacts.html

http://amertribes.proboards.com/thread/634/ancient-mines-kitchi-gummi

Since you read the book Loren, does Jewell believe the Cree tribe originated in the Basque area ? Does he believe he found examples of he Cypriot Syllabary that was no longer used after the 3rd Century BC ?

This is starting to show overtones of the racist views so common in this psuedo history crap
Native Americans weren't smart enough to have mined copper and produce usable artifacts.
Native Americans weren't advanced enough to have their own gardens and grow crops.
Native Americans were not advanced enough to pile dirt in a mound.
etc, etc.
I wonder Loren if your reading list for me includes Hutton Pulitzer ?
Do you ever, ever, ever intend to show some actual evidence ? Is it your intention to get me to read all this crap and find the evidence for you ?

Loren

4/11/2018 08:09:30 am

Ah, yes, I suppose it was only a matter of time before "racist" was thrown out there.

It's probably best to avoid any literature that might upset your carefully constructed house of cards.

The Indian explanation doesn't seem to hold water, since the quantities found are a pitiful fraction of what was mined. The Indians who supposedly went through all that effort to work the mines just up and left one day and left no cultural memory of the ancient mines, and inexplicably reduced their use of the material to miniscule levels.

It seems much more plausible to me that the "Old Copper Culture" was a byproduct of the foreign miners, and when that activity collapsed, the Indians went back to their old materials.

I really don't care what you read. Most likely you already know "all you need to know". It's all in that marketing brochure by Susan Martin, after all.

Jim

4/11/2018 08:27:28 am

The amount of copper missing is about equal to the amount of actual evidence you have produced, zip, nada, zero, nothing.

Loren

4/11/2018 08:35:42 am

I think you've provided a pretty good sense of your low level of expertise on this topic and I will consider that along with your conclusion regarding how much copper is missing, thank you.

It's a pretty neat trick that any reference that doesn't prostrate itself at the alter of isolationism is dismissed out of hand and "No evidence!" can be loudly proclaimed. That is quite a luxury.

Jim

4/11/2018 09:46:58 am

Loren:

"It's a pretty neat trick that any reference that doesn't prostrate itself at the alter of isolationism is dismissed out of hand and "No evidence!" can be loudly proclaimed. That is quite a luxury. "

There is an easy solution to this.
Provide compelling evidence.

Loren

4/11/2018 10:09:27 am

Yes, not only do academic isolationists have the divine right to determine what's true, they also get to decide what constitutes evidence. One might justifiably call that a "lock".

I can understand the point of view of those who reside inside this venerable farce, but I have my own luxury, which is to not be occupationally or intellectually bound to a dead paradigm based on 19th century politics.

Jim

4/11/2018 11:01:27 am

Word soup.
Loren: This will be my last response to you.
Look at all your posts, you have not provided any evidence whatsoever. None. "Read this book" is not evidence.
I have not decided anything on your evidence due to the fact that you have provided none.
Quote one post where you have provided evidence !!! You can't do it.

DAVID TOWLE

4/6/2018 03:58:38 pm

Hi, Andy in the photograph we can plainly see a gauge stick lying on the ground above the sacred fire pit. I believe it is a one foot stick. That would make this sacred fire pit about eight feet by eight feet in diameter .Why this lie of the ox hide mold is still around is a mystery. :)

Peter

4/10/2018 06:22:23 am

Totally free, and all anybody with half a brain needs to know: http://www.filedropper.com/stateofourknowledgeaboutcoppermininginmichigan

Martin, Susan R. 1995. The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan. The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2-3):119-138.

Loren

4/10/2018 07:46:32 am

"All you need to know". Spoken like a true scholar.

Loren

4/10/2018 08:51:18 am

That paper sounds like it was written by a marketing department.

Come on, guys, throw your back into it! We've got to keep the rotting corpse of John Wesley Powell standing! Those barbarians have their own ideas, and the peasants are believing it! Do something!

Jim

4/10/2018 10:51:31 am

Loren Under The Bridge;
The onus is on you to prove your untenable nonsense.
Throwing up references to titles of out of print doorstops that no one has read, nor will waste their money on to buy is hardly evidence.
Do you have anything ? anything at all ?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, say something pertinent, try Loren, try, put your back into it!

Loren

4/10/2018 11:12:25 am

Straining at the ropes holding up Powell,
Monroe indoctrinates with title and trowel,
With paper and pomp in august stone halls
They laugh at those peasants who dare have the balls
To question their edicts that don't fit the facts
Institutions behind them, they launch their attacks

Manly P. Hall said time will reveal
America was explored long before steel
Time's not on their side, so obfuscate and hide
Ridicule, laugh, abuse, and deride
The borders! The stitches! Exquisite bows!
They fawned at the Emperor's wonderful clothes.

Jim

4/10/2018 06:36:07 pm

http://www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/multimedia/4112/838/085.700x700.jpg

My God will you look at the size of those oxhides from Tennessee !!
That big one has to be 8 to 9 inches in length, it's gotta weigh multiple ounces. Good thing they put 4 handles on them for carrying purposes.

http://www.nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?regid=2693&irn=182069

Loren

4/10/2018 07:01:40 pm

A guy finds a guitar-shaped refrigerator magnet. His friend asks what it is, and he says it's a guitar. His friend replies, "Dummy, that's way too small to be a guitar, it's just a refrigerator magnet."

DAVID TOWLE

4/11/2018 06:07:18 am

Of the thousand abandoned copper mines in the U.P. the average ore grade was barely one percent copper. The majority of the ancient pits are small in size and the total volume of rock and ore removed leans towards a much smaller amount of coppers recovered. Much of the ancient coppers did not come from the pits but from the huge deposits of float coppers found near the shores of Lake Superior. When the French explore-ers first arrived in the copper regions they encountered the reminents of these large copper float deposits in the mouths of many of the streams and rivers .

Loren

4/11/2018 11:05:00 am

The ancients weren't mining ore, they were following veins of pure crystalline copper. Some of their multi-ton copper masses were found still on their cribbing in the process of being raised from the mine.

If ore yield estimates are applied to the ancient mines on Isle Royale, those estimates will be grossly in error.

Loren

4/11/2018 11:36:15 am

To clarify, I'm just talking Michigan copper above, certainly the ancients were mining copper ore in other places.

Jim

4/11/2018 11:34:37 am

Sure, and of that 1%, did the modern miners leave behind all the big honking multi ton chunks behind because they couldn't handle them ?
And then you multiply their cumulative over exaggerations,,,,,
5x percent of ore, 5x (?) estimated hole size, 2.5x weight per yard of material,,,,,,,thats already over 62x the amount before you even start counting the pits.
Has anyone looked at their tailings to see how efficient they were? Of that 1% how much did they toss out as untenable with stone hammers or they just plain missed.
These wild estimates are just plain fantasy.

Loren

4/11/2018 11:57:21 am

Jim, I don't think you grasp the difference between copper ore and crystalline copper. Crystalline copper is pure copper. No smelting, just pure copper straight out of the ground. Divest yourself of the notion of ancients mining ore on Isle Royale.

They freed pure copper from the rock matrix by heating with fire and rapidly cooling with water, then beating the remaining rock out with hammers.

Their process for removing pure copper masses from the pits was readily apparent, since the oak cribbing was preserved by copper solutions.

They clearly had no problem raising the masses, but the evidence indicated a sudden stop to all activity at the mines, as if they just put down their tools and walked away.

Jim

4/11/2018 12:57:33 pm

Well then Loren, since you have finally decided to grace us with "evidence" I will relent and respond.

"The ancients weren't mining ore, they were following veins of pure crystalline copper."

Veins of copper in rock is the very definition of ore. That it was NOT pure copper but a 95% copper content is of no consequence, there were in fact mining copper ore, that they used rocks rather than modern machinery and a stamp mill, it is still mining ore !!!!

"Jim, I don't think you grasp the difference between copper ore and crystalline copper. Crystalline copper is pure copper. "

This was not pure copper !!!
What the heck does "Crystalline" have to do with anything, all common metals are polycrystalline, so what ?

"They freed pure copper from the rock matrix by heating with fire and rapidly cooling with water, then beating the remaining rock out with hammers."

It's called mining.

"They clearly had no problem raising the masses"

And that's why they were left there.

Loren

4/11/2018 03:13:32 pm

Here I made an attempt to correct and clarify and address some of Jim's critiques:

L:"The ancients weren't mining ore, they were following veins of pure crystalline copper."

L Update: Freeing veins of native copper results in a lump of metallic copper. With other copper ores smelting is required to obtain metallic copper. Correct me if I'm wrong.

J: Veins of copper in rock is the very definition of ore. That it was NOT pure copper but a 95% copper content is of no consequence, there were in fact mining copper ore, that they used rocks rather than modern machinery and a stamp mill, it is still mining ore !!!!

L Update: **Jim is correct, native copper is an ore.

L: "Jim, I don't think you grasp the difference between copper ore and crystalline copper. Crystalline copper is pure copper. "

J: This was not pure copper !!! What the heck does "Crystalline" have to do with anything, all common metals are polycrystalline, so what ?

L Update: **Yes, that statement was a mess. " Jim, I don't think you grasp the difference between native copper and other copper ores." I think I misunderstood his point about trailings.

L: "They freed pure copper from the rock matrix by heating with fire and rapidly cooling with water, then beating the remaining rock out with hammers."

J: It's called mining.

L Update: **Good luck trying to beat metallic copper out of non-native copper ores. Sure, that method of breaking up the rock can be applied to other ores, as far as obtaining smaller chunks. Again, though, the process is different with native copper as the smelting step is not needed. It's just a matter of breaking the rock away from the metal.

L: "They clearly had no problem raising the masses"

J: And that's why they were left there.

L Update: **The multi-ton hunks were already raised several feet off the ground, and the simple process to get them raised that high would have been sufficient to get them the rest of the way out, had they continued work. The evidence of a sudden work stoppage is recorded by Drier and Dutemple, if I'm not mistaken.

Andy White

4/11/2018 11:57:08 am

Until someone produces an actual Old World artifact in good archaeological context in Michigan . . .

Loren

4/11/2018 11:59:11 am

...we'll just ignore the question of the mines and pretend it doesn't exist.

I know.

Andy White

4/11/2018 12:03:13 pm

Because there is no direct evidence that Michigan copper was procured by anyone other than Native Americans.

Or maybe the unicorns did it, since there is just as much evidence for that as for ancient Minoans.

Loren

4/11/2018 12:08:39 pm

Michigan copper is identifiable through metallurgical analysis. There's work being done now to catalog the metallurgical fingerprints of all known ancient copper sources (at U Minnesota if I remember correctly). When that's completed and bronze age artifacts start being tested against it, I hope there's enough grow to go around.

Jim

4/11/2018 01:19:05 pm

"...we'll just ignore the question of the mines and pretend it doesn't exist. "

Wut mines ?

"The ancients weren't mining ore,"

Loren

4/11/2018 12:09:41 pm

*enough *crow* to go around.

Andy White

4/11/2018 12:13:55 pm

There's no crow involved. What's missing is any direct evidence - you can say x, y, and z happened all you want, but with no evidence it's just a simple assertion. I can just as easily assert unicorns were the copper miners - prove me wrong!

Last time I checked, Michigan copper was known for its high purity. To get "pure" copper from European ores you have to smelt it.

Loren

4/11/2018 12:24:23 pm

You don't get pure copper from European ores. Michigan crystalline copper is more than 99% pure straight out of the ground. Old World smelter coppers had high levels of impurities like arsenic, and the purity of those smelter coppers does not come close to the purity of the Michigan crystalline copper.

The contaminates and their relative amounts indicate which mine smelted copper came from. It's the geographic specificity of the impurities and their relative amounts that enables the sources to be identified. There may be some layman's inaccuracy there, but thats the gist.

Jim

4/11/2018 01:04:37 pm

" Michigan crystalline copper is more than 99% pure straight out of the ground."

No it isn't !!!

Loren

4/11/2018 02:22:20 pm

Yeah, there are a number of inaccuracies there, plus inaccuracies in Jim's retorts, too many to untangle at this point. I am a layman trying to convey complex technical information and not quite up to the task.

The key term I was missing was "native copper". Contrast native copper with other copper ores and you'll see there's a big difference, and that is the distinction I was trying to make between "pure (native) copper" and "ore".

Anyone willing to actually study the mines and what is known of them will find the gist what I said, or at least was trying to say, is generally accurate, though certainly there are many problems with my terms and usage.

I'll grant you that the technical details got me into territory I do not have mastery of, and proceeding was certainly unwise in this environment.

Loren

4/11/2018 12:27:12 pm

Also, to get *any* copper from ore you have to smelt it. The resulting purity is secondary.

Jim

4/11/2018 01:14:45 pm

You really should have stuck to recommending books.

Loren

4/11/2018 02:37:04 pm

Let me restate:

To get copper from any non-native copper ore, you have to smelt it.

Any objections there, Jim?

Loren

4/11/2018 02:39:09 pm

And the copper that results from smelting has varying degrees of purity.

Are we ok on that, Jim?

Jim

4/11/2018 03:30:41 pm

Better, but you seem to be missing the point that the "native" copper you are speaking of isn't pure, but approx. 95% copper.
Lets not confuse refining with smelting. Smelting only melts the metal to facilitate it's separation from rock, it does not remove other metals that may be melted or other impurities.

Jim

4/11/2018 03:09:02 pm

Would anyone be interested to know that since the modern era of mining in the Upper Peninsula (1840s to present day) that they have mined a whopping 12 billion pounds, or, a tad over one percent of 1/2 billion tons.
Now If the Phoenicians took 1.5 billion tons that would be about 99.6% of the ore.
They really cleaned us out, that must be why the natives quit mining, there was nothing left, only a few odd billion pounds.

Loren

4/11/2018 03:14:49 pm

Sources?

Jim

4/11/2018 03:53:42 pm

https://web.archive.org/web/20050909185216/http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/copper.html

" These events brought a rush of copper-seeking prospectors into the Upper Peninsula in the early 1840s. Copper mining has been almost continuous in the Keweenaw Peninsula area for the 150 years since then. During that time over 12 billion pounds of native copper have been mined."

Loren

4/11/2018 03:19:58 pm

I think you've got a straw-man number for "the Phoenicians". Who is claiming that?

Loren

4/11/2018 03:29:02 pm

Nice strawman, Jim.

Won't touch a book making the case, but apparently has an inside track on suitably ludicrous claims to "debunk". Bravo!

Jim

4/11/2018 04:30:47 pm

Who can keep track of all the people that were here for the copper and otherwise.
Pulitzer, Jewell, say Minoans.
Numerous people have said Phoenicians.
Fred Rydholm has Egyptians, Romans, Israelites, Irish, Vikings and Lord knows who else running around America.
Scott Wolter seems to favor Minoans, but he has Templars, Jesuits, Cistercian monks and probably a dozen other peoples sashaying around pre Columbian America
There are claims of Hittites, Greeks, Cypriots getting the copper.
What was it that Jewell said about the Cree writing in Basque ? perhaps it was the Basque.

All I know is that's a whole lot of people who left nary a trace.

Loren

4/11/2018 05:15:05 pm

I'm actually glad you used that number, Jim. It's an excellent demonstration of the type of underhanded tactics I've come to expect from academics where challenges to the accepted narrative of American pre-history are concerned.

Loren

4/11/2018 05:24:27 pm

I know academia takes it as a given that everything artifact that contradicts the narrative is a fake and a fraud, but I don't buy it, and I think a large segment of the population, or at least of large segment of the tiny segment that cares, doesn't buy it.

Personally, I think they're probably all right to some extent. From my view, the diffusionist model is a more logical framework. The accepted narrative has to throw out and ignore a lot of data to be workable, and even then it barely holds together. A diffusionist framework accounts for what is accepted *and* the anomalies, which are too numerous to ignore, and the arguments for the supposed fakery of *every last one* wears a little thin.

Obviously academia has no problem with it, but I, and many others in the public, smell a rat.

Loren

4/11/2018 05:29:45 pm

So, yes, "nary a trace". Academia has seen to that.

Loren

4/11/2018 05:43:42 pm

As far as I'm concerned, American anthropology, as long as it has existed, has been a disgrace. A political tool foisting false narratives on the public from their lofty perches. Almost as bad as politicians themselves, except politicians have the redeeming quality of not believing their own bullshit.

At this point, it's pretty much been left to the public and a few isolated voices to piece together the real story of America, and for that matter, the world. If success in that endeavor is ever obtained, to the extent it can be, it will be in spite of the academics, not because of them.

If there's any justice, which is highly doubtful at this point, history will remember Fred Rydholm as a great man and look at the last 150 or so years of American anthropology as the disgraceful tragedy it is.

Jim

4/11/2018 06:38:52 pm

Loren,,,What number are you talking about ? One and a half billion tons ?
That number was put forth by Drier and DuTemple, and repeated by many others.

Jim

4/11/2018 06:42:27 pm

Sorry, perhaps not Drier and DuTemple, I have seen it bandied about in more than one place.

Loren

4/12/2018 05:30:42 am

Seen it "bandied about", have you? That's a high standard of evidence, indeed.

In fact, "bandied about" in so many places you can't find a link.

Loren

4/12/2018 07:32:52 am

I'll help you out here, Jim.

Phil Coppens, who really does write a about ufos, in addition to the mines, and therefore surely is peddling outlandish quantities, uses 500,000 tons as the missing amount.

That's three orders of magnitude below what you claim people are claiming.

Someone's got a credibility problem here, that's for sure.

You can read Phil's paper on SuperiorReading.com, "An 'Up Nort' resource specializing in the history of the Lake Superior region through the eyes of those who lived it."

Jim

4/12/2018 07:33:34 am

You ever hear the saying, pot can't call the kettle black ?
In this entire conversation have you provided one link ?
Although the onus is on you to prove your bizarre pre columbian Minoan or whomever you think took the copper you provide no easily checkable data.
Well except for your reference to "Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior" which when found did not even support what you said:

"Jim
Are you kidding me ??
You put forth "Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior" as evidence but you can't find the evidence in it ? You expect me to find the evidence ? Am I getting this right ?
Loren
4/10/2018 06:25:15 pm

I think you're right, that's an incorrect reference. "

The only thing you have provided is title references to mostly out of print books.
For Gods sake you haven't even told us what your position is !!!! Who do you think "took" the copper?, when,? how much ? All you have done is shout from the rooftops "you are wrong, you are liars, you are hiding the truth. No evidence from Loren, oh no, no, no, but listen to her screech when the shoe is on the other foot.

Who gives a crap who said such a nonsensical thing.

Jim

4/12/2018 08:01:40 am

Loren:

"I'll help you out here, Jim.

Phil Coppens, who really does write a about ufos, in addition to the mines, and therefore surely is peddling outlandish quantities, uses 500,000 tons as the missing amount."

Well Loren now we are getting somewhere, if you think 500,000 is an outlandish amount, what about the estimate of Drier and Du Temple, which is " 750,000 tons of copper had been mined from the region"
Oh, here is your precious link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_Royale

Loren

4/12/2018 08:05:20 am

You may want to review the thread where I offered the "Ancient Mining on the Shores of Lake Superior" as a reference. That was one of two sources I initially provided, one of which does in fact have a relevant (though too high) estimate. After acknowledging my error (what a concept!), I consulted my reference and provided two more sources for estimates.

If out of print books are invalid references, historians are in big trouble, as are, I would think, anthropologists.

I guess a web address doesn't count, so here's the direct link to Coppens' paper:

http://www.superiorreading.com/pdf/coppens.pdf

Jim

4/12/2018 08:18:55 am

"If out of print books are invalid references, historians are in big trouble, as are, I would think, anthropologists."

DO NOT put words in my mouth and attribute crap like this to me !!!!
Where in the holy hell did I say out of print books are invalid references ????

Loren

4/12/2018 08:19:28 am

My point there, was, of course, that someone who supposedly should be offering outlandish claims is, in fact, using reasonable values, which, as you point out, are more conservative than those estimated by Ph.D researchers doing actual field work on Isle Royale.

I was in no way claiming 500,000 tons is an outlandish amount, but thank you for the misrepresentation. And thank you again for demonstrating dirty tricks.

Loren

4/12/2018 08:21:38 am

Shall i go back and count how many times you've complained about one of my references being out of print?

Jim

4/12/2018 08:46:58 am

Loren;

"Phil Coppens, who really does write a about ufos, in addition to the mines, and therefore surely is peddling outlandish quantities, uses 500,000 tons as the missing amount."

"I was in no way claiming 500,000 tons is an outlandish amount, but thank you for the misrepresentation. And thank you again for demonstrating dirty tricks."

Really Loren, really ?

"Shall i go back and count how many times you've complained about one of my references being out of print? "

Fill your boots.

Goodbye Loren, since you won't even tell me what your position is what is there to discuss ?

Loren

4/12/2018 08:52:15 am

Yeah, I suppose if one couldn't detect the dripping sarcasm, that is how it would be interpreted.

Ok, goodbye again.

Loren

4/11/2018 05:28:34 pm

So, yes, "nary a trace". Academia has seen to that.

Jim

4/11/2018 07:12:41 pm

I and many others in the public, smell a rat.
Easy fix, stop hanging out with the Putz

"As far as I'm concerned, American anthropology, as long as it has existed, has been a disgrace. A political tool foisting false narratives on the public from their lofty perches."

"So, yes, "nary a trace". Academia has seen to that."

So you have no evidence, therefore it is a huge plot to hide it from you ?
I bet you believe the roman sword is the real deal, don't you ?

Loren

4/12/2018 05:48:08 am

I'm afraid you need to be more specific as to who "Putz" is. I don't hang out with any authors, so I guess you must mean Donny, and he's never been quite right.

Edward NWB

6/1/2019 08:20:38 pm

Andy,

For the last several years there has been an interesting discussion going on at several genetics blogs. It centered on the origin of the high prevalence of native American R1b found aamongs the Great Lakes Ojibwe. This y-dna approaching 80% in some communities was ascribed as being post-Columbian in origin which made sense considering the fur trade and perhaps some protective dna against European plagues that followed.

The problem now is that new genetic research indicates that this R1b is of pre-Columbian origin and the new hypothesis is that it came across from Beringia with the 250 or so original arrivals.

Any thoughts or information you could provide for clarification?

The Wikipedia Native American Paternal DNA page has been amended to now favour this new development. If this is true then what was previously considered to be R1b that was "virtually indistinguishable" from modern European dna has undergone an amazing parallel development here in North America.

Thanks again! - Edward

Comments are closed.

Research Hint: Writing “Minoan” on Photographs of Native American Remains Does Not Actually Prove They Are Minoan

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