In a video I posted last week about Josh Reeves's claim that Graham Hancock plagiarized a section of Reeves's movie discussing Mississippian cosmology (specifically related to Orion), I showed how some of Reeves's script was taken word-for-word from a 2007 article by George Lankford. I was able to show this because Hancock quoted the same passages --properly cited -- from Lankford in his book America Before.
In the last portion of the video I expressed skepticism that Hancock had independently "stumbled upon" the general idea that ancient Mississippian and Egyptian religions were related through their similarities regarding Orion, the Milky Way, etc. My skepticism came from the knowledge that there were, in fact, other sources out there at the time of Hancock's trip to Moundville wherein such comparisons were discussed. At the end of the video I invited Hancock to clarify where he got the idea.
I'm reproducing the three emails we exchanged below, in full (at his request). Hancock states that he had not read Greg Little's (2014) book Path of Souls at this time of his trip, and he points out that he did credit Little and Andrew Collins for their prior discussion of the idea. He also states that I am not telepathic and not inside his head. He is correct in both of those assertions, and it was wrong of me to speculate that he improperly took the idea from someone else.
In the last portion of the video I expressed skepticism that Hancock had independently "stumbled upon" the general idea that ancient Mississippian and Egyptian religions were related through their similarities regarding Orion, the Milky Way, etc. My skepticism came from the knowledge that there were, in fact, other sources out there at the time of Hancock's trip to Moundville wherein such comparisons were discussed. At the end of the video I invited Hancock to clarify where he got the idea.
I'm reproducing the three emails we exchanged below, in full (at his request). Hancock states that he had not read Greg Little's (2014) book Path of Souls at this time of his trip, and he points out that he did credit Little and Andrew Collins for their prior discussion of the idea. He also states that I am not telepathic and not inside his head. He is correct in both of those assertions, and it was wrong of me to speculate that he improperly took the idea from someone else.
Here is a short video I made to follow up on the original video:
Here are the emails in chronological order:
From Hancock to me:
Dear Dr Andrew White ([email protected])
Thank you for clarifying (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWhm7zfoaE) who plagiarised who in this Josh Reeves issue, and thank you for recognising that I do properly reference my sources while it seems Josh Reeves does not.
As to the second half of your video, from around 9 minutes in, you talk about comparisons between the religious ideas of ancient Egypt and of the ancient Mississippi Valley, and you effectively accuse me of fabricating the claim that I stumbled across that comparison by chance and unexpectedly when I came to Moundville.
9.26ff: QUOTE "The interesting thing, though, in Graham Hancock's book -- he presents it as though he kind of stumbled upon that comparison all by himself..." END QUOTE
You then quote me on how I try to prepare thoroughly and how I realised it looked like I had missed something important in my background reading before starting out on this trip... But I should have known about this...
And you say that you don't buy for one second that QUOTE "he [Hancock] had no idea that those similarities were out there. He would come all the way here and got to Moundville and not have done the very basic reading on Mississippian religion just seems silly. I don't know. Were we all born yesterday?" END QUOTE
With respect, Dr White, you cannot know how and in what order I set about the research for America Before, and you cannot know the workings of my mind, or the chain of connections in my past research that framed how I approached what confronted me at Moundville. You are accusing me of lying and that is a pretty heavy trip to lay on anyone, especially so since you did not contact me in advance to get my position on this and, more importantly, since you deliberately omit mention of the fact that I DO give credit where credit is due and that I do make direct reference in my main text to other researchers who noted these comparisons before me -- e.g. on page 310 of America Before I write as follows:
QUOTE (emphasis added) The Milky Way, the connection with Orion, the perilous afterlife journey of the soul, and the notion of creating an image or copy of the realm of the dead on the ground were all genuinely present in the Mississippian religion, just as they were in the ancient Egyptian religion. No one familiar with the Pyramid Texts and the Book of the Dead could fail to notice these obvious resemblances. I’m not the first to do so. Andrew Collins and Gregory Little made passing mention of them in 2014 and there was earlier brief recognition of the same issue by others in 2012.2 To my knowledge at the time of this writing, however, no in-depth comparative study has ever been undertaken to determine whether there’s a real connection between these two otherwise very different cultures, separated not only by geography but also by time."
END QUOTE
It is this in-depth, comparative study that follows (roughly between pp 310 and 362 of America Before) that I claim to be original to me. You will not find anything in those pages that you can spin as plagiarism, lying or misrepresentation of any kind on my part. All this is my own original take on the content of the ancient Egyptian funerary texts and the comparisons that emerge from my close -- and fully referenced and properly credited -- reading of the work of George Lankford and others on the Moundville religion.
It is disingenuous of you to insinuate that I falsely claim priority in noting the obvious similarities between the ancient Egyptian religion and the Moundville religions when I clearly do not claim priority and when I clearly do state on the record on page 310 of America Before that I am not the first to notice these similarities. The force of your insinuation would be lost if you had quoted me specifically disclaiming priority as I do on page 310. I wonder why you chose not to do so in your video and thus to mislead your viewers on my true position?
To give you some background, when my wife Santha and I began the Mississippi Valley leg of our America Before research trip I was indeed not well prepared. My intention early in the project had been to focus on the Southwest, and I was particularly interested in Gary David's Orion correlations in Arizona. But while in Arizona in late May 2017 (travelling with Gary David, Randall Carlson and others) I suffered a massive episode of epileptic seizures described on pages 297/298 ff of America Before, as a result of which I was knocked sideways in almost every imaginable manner possible. I lost all memory of the research I had done in the Southwest, and all interesting in reporting it. When I came to Moundville however, on the long road journey up the Mississippi Valley (with Santha now doing all the driving) that eventually got us to Serpent Mound for the summer solstice -- and having at that point read not a word of the work of George Lankford et al -- I did indeed, as I describe, find myself overtaken by a massive sense of deja vu to do with the blatant and obvious similarities to ancient Egypt. Subsequently I researched the subject in depth, and what I have written speaks for itself, namely I give full credit to Lankford et all for breaking the code of Moundville symbolism and I correctly attribute priority to Greg Little, Andrew Collins and others for preceding me in noting the blatant and obvious similarities between the Moundville and ancient Egyptian religions.
I then go on to mount my own detailed investigation of the similarities, and it is this investigation, (roughly between pp 310 and 362 of America Before) that I claim as original to myself. If you feel I have plagiarised anyone in that investigation please indicate where and who.
Something else that you (and others) appear to have failed to note (or prefer not to note?) is that I have my own deeper background with the "Path of Souls" concept in ancient native America and its connections to ancient Egypt. I review this background (which is reported in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror) on pp 446 to 448 of America Before, where I write:
QUOTE
I have explored the mysteries of the Maya, and of their predecessors the Olmec, in my earlier work, so I have not retold their extraordinary story here. I will mention in passing, however, that in 1998, long before I knew of the Mississippi Valley civilization and its afterlife beliefs concerning the constellation Orion and the Milky Way, I drew attention in Heaven’s Mirror to a discovery by archaeologists Jose Fernandez and Robert Cormack establishing that the settlement core of the Maya city of Utatlan was designed “according to a celestial scheme reflected by the shape of the constellation of Orion.”9
Fernandez was also able to prove that all of Utatlan’s major temples “were oriented to the heliacal setting points of stars in Orion,”10 and noted that the Milky Way, alongside which Orion stands, “was thought of as a celestial path connecting the firmament’s navel with the centre of the underworld.”11
This should be familiar territory to the reader by now and hopefully you can guess what comes next. “Very much like the ancient Egyptians,” I reported inHeaven’s Mirror, the Maya regarded the Milky Way as a particularly important feature of the heavens:
They conceived of it as the road that led to their netherworld, Xibalba which, in common with other Central American peoples, they located in the sky.12
I also commented on Mexican traditions of the postmortem journey of the soul in which the deceased, just as in the ancient Egyptian Duat, would face a series of ordeals and “a final judgment in the terrifying presence of the death god.”13 Noting numerous other striking similarities in beliefs and symbolism around the mysteries of death and the afterlife, I concluded:
In Egypt, as amongst the Maya, the stellar context involves Orion and the Milky Way. In Egypt as in Mexico a journey through the netherworld must be undertaken by the deceased. In Egypt as in Mexico religious teachings assert that life is our opportunity to prepare for this journey—an opportunity that should under no circumstances be wasted.14
Such correspondences led me to speculate that both ancient Egypt and ancient Mexico had shared in the legacy of an even more ancient cosmological religion, “wrapped up in sophisticated astronomical observations” and specifically focused on the afterlife journey of the soul. Neither Egypt nor Mexico had originated this religion, nor had they transmitted it directly to one another. Rather each of them had inherited it from a third, as yet unidentified, civilization.15
It was a hypothesis. What would help to strengthen it, and perhaps even confirm it, would be evidence of other civilizations with no direct relationship in which the same legacy could be identified.
This evidence, I submit, now exists in the astonishing proximity of the religious beliefs, iconography, and symbolism of the Mississippi Valley to the religious beliefs, iconography, and symbolism of ancient Egypt outlined in part 6. These deep structural connections are, in my view, unexplainable by any means other than a shared legacy from a very ancient source—a source predating the separation of peoples when the Americas became isolated from the “Old World” by the rising oceans at the end of the Ice Age.
END QUOTE
I wonder if those who accuse me of plagiarism and false claims of priority, etc, are aware of this earlier encounter that I had with ancient Native American religions and their similarities to the ancient Egyptian religion -- all thoroughly documented and referenced in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror. For example Greg Little (cc'd here, together with his co-author Andrew Collins) seems to be unaware of my earlier work on this subject in his comment and speculations posted beneath your video:
QUOTE
atagreg123 hours ago
Graham had a copy of our "Path of Souls" book before visiting Moundville as well as my Encyclopedia of Mounds. If you look at the "index" in Path of Souls you'll see the Egyptian connection discussed many times. However, on page 310 of his book "America Before" Graham says about comprehending the link between Egyptian beliefs and mound builder beliefs: "I'm not the first to do so. Andrew Collins and Gregory Little made passing mention of them in 2014..." My guess that because of his adherence to Orion being the only important link that he became impressed enough at Moundville to truly comprehend how real the connection is.END QUOTE
Greg's "guess" seems uninformed by my earlier work in Heaven's Mirror, and I don't know if he has read the whole of America Before where that earlier work is referenced. But certainly, Dr White, you should have been aware, since you make much of having read the whole of America Before, just as you should have been aware -- and should have reported -- my specific disavowal of priority on page 310 of America Before. Yet you speculate (12.33 of your video ff -- emphasis added): "I think it's very likely that he took the whole idea of a connection between Egypt and ancient Mississippians -- he got that from somewhere. I don't buy for a second that he just stumbled on it when he got out of his car at Moundville."
Of course, Dr White, you are welcome to your own speculations about my processes, inspiration and chains of thought and connections, but you surely do not claim to be telepathic and a more thorough investigation of what I actually wrote in America Before might have led you to speculate less unkindly.
Wishing you joy on your path
Graham Hancock
Thank you for clarifying (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWhm7zfoaE) who plagiarised who in this Josh Reeves issue, and thank you for recognising that I do properly reference my sources while it seems Josh Reeves does not.
As to the second half of your video, from around 9 minutes in, you talk about comparisons between the religious ideas of ancient Egypt and of the ancient Mississippi Valley, and you effectively accuse me of fabricating the claim that I stumbled across that comparison by chance and unexpectedly when I came to Moundville.
9.26ff: QUOTE "The interesting thing, though, in Graham Hancock's book -- he presents it as though he kind of stumbled upon that comparison all by himself..." END QUOTE
You then quote me on how I try to prepare thoroughly and how I realised it looked like I had missed something important in my background reading before starting out on this trip... But I should have known about this...
And you say that you don't buy for one second that QUOTE "he [Hancock] had no idea that those similarities were out there. He would come all the way here and got to Moundville and not have done the very basic reading on Mississippian religion just seems silly. I don't know. Were we all born yesterday?" END QUOTE
With respect, Dr White, you cannot know how and in what order I set about the research for America Before, and you cannot know the workings of my mind, or the chain of connections in my past research that framed how I approached what confronted me at Moundville. You are accusing me of lying and that is a pretty heavy trip to lay on anyone, especially so since you did not contact me in advance to get my position on this and, more importantly, since you deliberately omit mention of the fact that I DO give credit where credit is due and that I do make direct reference in my main text to other researchers who noted these comparisons before me -- e.g. on page 310 of America Before I write as follows:
QUOTE (emphasis added) The Milky Way, the connection with Orion, the perilous afterlife journey of the soul, and the notion of creating an image or copy of the realm of the dead on the ground were all genuinely present in the Mississippian religion, just as they were in the ancient Egyptian religion. No one familiar with the Pyramid Texts and the Book of the Dead could fail to notice these obvious resemblances. I’m not the first to do so. Andrew Collins and Gregory Little made passing mention of them in 2014 and there was earlier brief recognition of the same issue by others in 2012.2 To my knowledge at the time of this writing, however, no in-depth comparative study has ever been undertaken to determine whether there’s a real connection between these two otherwise very different cultures, separated not only by geography but also by time."
END QUOTE
It is this in-depth, comparative study that follows (roughly between pp 310 and 362 of America Before) that I claim to be original to me. You will not find anything in those pages that you can spin as plagiarism, lying or misrepresentation of any kind on my part. All this is my own original take on the content of the ancient Egyptian funerary texts and the comparisons that emerge from my close -- and fully referenced and properly credited -- reading of the work of George Lankford and others on the Moundville religion.
It is disingenuous of you to insinuate that I falsely claim priority in noting the obvious similarities between the ancient Egyptian religion and the Moundville religions when I clearly do not claim priority and when I clearly do state on the record on page 310 of America Before that I am not the first to notice these similarities. The force of your insinuation would be lost if you had quoted me specifically disclaiming priority as I do on page 310. I wonder why you chose not to do so in your video and thus to mislead your viewers on my true position?
To give you some background, when my wife Santha and I began the Mississippi Valley leg of our America Before research trip I was indeed not well prepared. My intention early in the project had been to focus on the Southwest, and I was particularly interested in Gary David's Orion correlations in Arizona. But while in Arizona in late May 2017 (travelling with Gary David, Randall Carlson and others) I suffered a massive episode of epileptic seizures described on pages 297/298 ff of America Before, as a result of which I was knocked sideways in almost every imaginable manner possible. I lost all memory of the research I had done in the Southwest, and all interesting in reporting it. When I came to Moundville however, on the long road journey up the Mississippi Valley (with Santha now doing all the driving) that eventually got us to Serpent Mound for the summer solstice -- and having at that point read not a word of the work of George Lankford et al -- I did indeed, as I describe, find myself overtaken by a massive sense of deja vu to do with the blatant and obvious similarities to ancient Egypt. Subsequently I researched the subject in depth, and what I have written speaks for itself, namely I give full credit to Lankford et all for breaking the code of Moundville symbolism and I correctly attribute priority to Greg Little, Andrew Collins and others for preceding me in noting the blatant and obvious similarities between the Moundville and ancient Egyptian religions.
I then go on to mount my own detailed investigation of the similarities, and it is this investigation, (roughly between pp 310 and 362 of America Before) that I claim as original to myself. If you feel I have plagiarised anyone in that investigation please indicate where and who.
Something else that you (and others) appear to have failed to note (or prefer not to note?) is that I have my own deeper background with the "Path of Souls" concept in ancient native America and its connections to ancient Egypt. I review this background (which is reported in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror) on pp 446 to 448 of America Before, where I write:
QUOTE
I have explored the mysteries of the Maya, and of their predecessors the Olmec, in my earlier work, so I have not retold their extraordinary story here. I will mention in passing, however, that in 1998, long before I knew of the Mississippi Valley civilization and its afterlife beliefs concerning the constellation Orion and the Milky Way, I drew attention in Heaven’s Mirror to a discovery by archaeologists Jose Fernandez and Robert Cormack establishing that the settlement core of the Maya city of Utatlan was designed “according to a celestial scheme reflected by the shape of the constellation of Orion.”9
Fernandez was also able to prove that all of Utatlan’s major temples “were oriented to the heliacal setting points of stars in Orion,”10 and noted that the Milky Way, alongside which Orion stands, “was thought of as a celestial path connecting the firmament’s navel with the centre of the underworld.”11
This should be familiar territory to the reader by now and hopefully you can guess what comes next. “Very much like the ancient Egyptians,” I reported inHeaven’s Mirror, the Maya regarded the Milky Way as a particularly important feature of the heavens:
They conceived of it as the road that led to their netherworld, Xibalba which, in common with other Central American peoples, they located in the sky.12
I also commented on Mexican traditions of the postmortem journey of the soul in which the deceased, just as in the ancient Egyptian Duat, would face a series of ordeals and “a final judgment in the terrifying presence of the death god.”13 Noting numerous other striking similarities in beliefs and symbolism around the mysteries of death and the afterlife, I concluded:
In Egypt, as amongst the Maya, the stellar context involves Orion and the Milky Way. In Egypt as in Mexico a journey through the netherworld must be undertaken by the deceased. In Egypt as in Mexico religious teachings assert that life is our opportunity to prepare for this journey—an opportunity that should under no circumstances be wasted.14
Such correspondences led me to speculate that both ancient Egypt and ancient Mexico had shared in the legacy of an even more ancient cosmological religion, “wrapped up in sophisticated astronomical observations” and specifically focused on the afterlife journey of the soul. Neither Egypt nor Mexico had originated this religion, nor had they transmitted it directly to one another. Rather each of them had inherited it from a third, as yet unidentified, civilization.15
It was a hypothesis. What would help to strengthen it, and perhaps even confirm it, would be evidence of other civilizations with no direct relationship in which the same legacy could be identified.
This evidence, I submit, now exists in the astonishing proximity of the religious beliefs, iconography, and symbolism of the Mississippi Valley to the religious beliefs, iconography, and symbolism of ancient Egypt outlined in part 6. These deep structural connections are, in my view, unexplainable by any means other than a shared legacy from a very ancient source—a source predating the separation of peoples when the Americas became isolated from the “Old World” by the rising oceans at the end of the Ice Age.
END QUOTE
I wonder if those who accuse me of plagiarism and false claims of priority, etc, are aware of this earlier encounter that I had with ancient Native American religions and their similarities to the ancient Egyptian religion -- all thoroughly documented and referenced in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror. For example Greg Little (cc'd here, together with his co-author Andrew Collins) seems to be unaware of my earlier work on this subject in his comment and speculations posted beneath your video:
QUOTE
atagreg123 hours ago
Graham had a copy of our "Path of Souls" book before visiting Moundville as well as my Encyclopedia of Mounds. If you look at the "index" in Path of Souls you'll see the Egyptian connection discussed many times. However, on page 310 of his book "America Before" Graham says about comprehending the link between Egyptian beliefs and mound builder beliefs: "I'm not the first to do so. Andrew Collins and Gregory Little made passing mention of them in 2014..." My guess that because of his adherence to Orion being the only important link that he became impressed enough at Moundville to truly comprehend how real the connection is.END QUOTE
Greg's "guess" seems uninformed by my earlier work in Heaven's Mirror, and I don't know if he has read the whole of America Before where that earlier work is referenced. But certainly, Dr White, you should have been aware, since you make much of having read the whole of America Before, just as you should have been aware -- and should have reported -- my specific disavowal of priority on page 310 of America Before. Yet you speculate (12.33 of your video ff -- emphasis added): "I think it's very likely that he took the whole idea of a connection between Egypt and ancient Mississippians -- he got that from somewhere. I don't buy for a second that he just stumbled on it when he got out of his car at Moundville."
Of course, Dr White, you are welcome to your own speculations about my processes, inspiration and chains of thought and connections, but you surely do not claim to be telepathic and a more thorough investigation of what I actually wrote in America Before might have led you to speculate less unkindly.
Wishing you joy on your path
Graham Hancock
My response to Hancock:
Hi Graham (et al.),
Thank you for the message. It does help me to clarify something of the history of these comparisons between Mississippian and ancient Egyptian religion/cosmology. I'm not overly familiar with the idea, as most of my work focuses on much earlier parts of North America's human past.
It appears I may have misunderstood that passage of your book about you being "nonplussed" at Moundville. It read to me as though you were saying you were unfamiliar with Mississippian/Egyptian similarities (specifically regarding Orion) until you arrived at Moundville. You said you had missed something in your research -- that implied to me that you were not familiar with the other discussions that came before yours in "America Before" (i.e., Greg Little's) at the time you got to Moundville. I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion. I don't have the book at home with me, so I can't review how the different sections are organized. I take you at your word, however, that it was a misreading on my part, and I apologize for that.
I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email? Also, to better understand the history of ideas about this, can you tell me if you remember when and how you first became aware of the Mississippian/Egyptian Orion parallels?
As a side note, I wonder about the incorporation of Orion and the Milky Way into religions/cosmologies around the world. Those two features are among the most distinctive and easily recognizable things in the night sky, and I would be surprised to learn that they are not central to many belief systems. I would not be surprised to find (if there was actual any way to know) that they figured into Paleolithic religions that existed tens of thousands of years ago.
Anyway . . . I will re-address the plagiarism issue. It's a holiday weekend here in the U.S. and I'm on summer break, so I'm not sure when I'll be back in the office next. I'm planning on discussing other things in your book over the course of the summer as I have time. As I said in my video, I think there are many interesting ideas in it but also some logical and factual issues. I will do my best to be fair, accurate, and objective, and to not rely on my powers of telepathy, which remain extremely under-developed.
Cordially,
Andy
Thank you for the message. It does help me to clarify something of the history of these comparisons between Mississippian and ancient Egyptian religion/cosmology. I'm not overly familiar with the idea, as most of my work focuses on much earlier parts of North America's human past.
It appears I may have misunderstood that passage of your book about you being "nonplussed" at Moundville. It read to me as though you were saying you were unfamiliar with Mississippian/Egyptian similarities (specifically regarding Orion) until you arrived at Moundville. You said you had missed something in your research -- that implied to me that you were not familiar with the other discussions that came before yours in "America Before" (i.e., Greg Little's) at the time you got to Moundville. I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion. I don't have the book at home with me, so I can't review how the different sections are organized. I take you at your word, however, that it was a misreading on my part, and I apologize for that.
I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email? Also, to better understand the history of ideas about this, can you tell me if you remember when and how you first became aware of the Mississippian/Egyptian Orion parallels?
As a side note, I wonder about the incorporation of Orion and the Milky Way into religions/cosmologies around the world. Those two features are among the most distinctive and easily recognizable things in the night sky, and I would be surprised to learn that they are not central to many belief systems. I would not be surprised to find (if there was actual any way to know) that they figured into Paleolithic religions that existed tens of thousands of years ago.
Anyway . . . I will re-address the plagiarism issue. It's a holiday weekend here in the U.S. and I'm on summer break, so I'm not sure when I'll be back in the office next. I'm planning on discussing other things in your book over the course of the summer as I have time. As I said in my video, I think there are many interesting ideas in it but also some logical and factual issues. I will do my best to be fair, accurate, and objective, and to not rely on my powers of telepathy, which remain extremely under-developed.
Cordially,
Andy
Hancock's response to me:
Dear Dr White
My replies interpolated with your comments. Your comments are highlighted yellow. [I've changed the highlighted text to purple italics so it will show up --AAW]
Thank you for the message. It does help me to clarify something of the history of these comparisons between Mississippian and ancient Egyptian religion/cosmology. I'm not overly familiar with the idea, as most of my work focuses on much earlier parts of North America's human past.
If you are not familiar with these comparisons then it was irresponsible of you to be in such a panty-twisting hurry to make defamatory statements about me in your video -- particularly your insinuation that I had lied about my first encounter with Moundville (e.g. QUOTE "This whole, you know 'I had never realised that Orion was a thing in Mississippian religion' -- the story [holds up book] that we get from Graham Hancock -- I think just doesn't pass the smell test to me. Surely he was aware of that... I think it's very likely that he [Hancock] took the whole idea of a connection between Egypt and ancient Mississippians -- he got that from somewhere. I don't buy for a second that he just stumbled on it when he got out of his car at Moundville... in terms of the stealing of ideas [holds up book]... I don't know [tone of voice significant here]... I'd like to see Graham Hancock clarify that all this stuff just poofed into his head -- cause that arrival story [facial expression significant here] -- I'm not buying it." END QUOTE
In these sneering, false and damaging statements (as well as others in your video) you specifically and clearly insinuate that I am involved in QUOTE "the stealing of ideas" END QUOTE. That is an extremely serious charge, capable of causing lasting harm, to lay against the reputation an internationally-known, New York Times bestselling author. If the charge of "stealing ideas" were true, and if it could be proven true, you would have been justified in making it, but since the charge is not true there is no justification whatsoever for your snickering speculations about my integrity. The bottom line here is that you failed to do due diligence before rushing rashly off to Youtube with your libels. Since you make much of the "fringe" failing to do due diligence, it is right and proper that you should be held to account when you yourself fail to meet the standards that you demand of others.
It appears I may have misunderstood that passage of your book about you being "nonplussed" at Moundville. It read to me as though you were saying you were unfamiliar with Mississippian/Egyptian similarities (specifically regarding Orion) until you arrived at Moundville. You said you had missed something in your research -- that implied to me that you were not familiar with the other discussions that came before yours in "America Before" (i.e., Greg Little's) at the time you got to Moundville. I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion. I don't have the book at home with me, so I can't review how the different sections are organized. I take you at your word, however, that it was a misreading on my part, and I apologize for that.
Rather bizarre squirming logic in the above Andrew (shall we use first name terms?). You misunderstood nothing. How I described my reaction to Moundville in the book is exactly how it happened. I certainly had the Little/Collins book "Path of Souls" in my library before that but I had not read it. I did, however, read it after my Mississippi Valley research trip -- as also I read Lankford et al. You state, QUOTE "I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion". END QUOTE. But this merely makes your rash and hasty rush to defame me even more reprehensible, since you knew I had credited Little and Collins with priority on the specific Moundville/Ancient Egypt connection yet failed to inform viewers of your video of this. As I said in my earlier mail, QUOTE "It is disingenuous of you to insinuate that I falsely claim priority in noting the obvious similarities between the ancient Egyptian religion and the Moundville religions when I clearly do not claim priority and when I clearly do state on the record on page 310 of America Before that I am not the first to notice these similarities. The force of your insinuation would be lost if you had quoted me specifically disclaiming priority as I do on page 310. I wonder why you chose not to do so in your video and thus to mislead your viewers on my true position?" END QUOTE
I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email?
I will return to this suggestion of yours at the end of this mail.
Also, to better understand the history of ideas about this, can you tell me if you remember when and how you first became aware of the Mississippian/Egyptian Orion parallels?
If you were a responsible scholar (and do you not, yourself, demand responsible scholarship from what you call the "fringe"?) you would have asked me this question first, before rushing to defame me on Youtube with your unevidenced "telepathic" speculations. It is peculiar that you are asking me this question now -- especially so in the light of the information given to you in my lengthy, opening email, and in the light of what I actually state in print in the book -- namely that I first became aware of the Mississippi/Egyptian Orion parallels during my 2017 visit to Moundville. I did indeed feel that I had missed something important in my research prior to that visit -- precisely because, as I also outline in my opening email, I have been talking about parallels between ancient Native American and ancient Egyptian religious ideas (with specific reference to Orion and the Milky Way) since I researched and published my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror. Having long previously commented on these parallels in the case of the Maya it would be bizarre indeed if the notice-boards at Moundville had not caught my attention and made me aware that essentially the same "path of souls" complex was present in the Mississippi Valley. But it was not prior knowledge of this that brought me to Moundville. It was just one stop on a long drive up the Mississippi Valley from New Orleans to Ohio during which Santha and I visited many mound sites on our way to witness the summer solstice at Serpent Mound.
Again, you failed to do due diligence (e.g. reading and reacting to pp 446-448 of America Before) which would have shown you that I have a history (in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror) with the "path of souls" complex amongst ancient Native Americans and the similarities of this complex to ancient Egyptian religious ideas. It's either that (i.e.you failed to do due diligence and did not in fact read the whole book as you claim) or, if you did read the whole book, then you must have deliberately ignored these pages in order to give illusory force to your insinuations that I am involved in "the stealing of ideas".
As Greg Little acknowledges in his email cc'd to you earlier in this thread with reference to Heaven's Mirror:
QUOTE
There is a lot more relating Egyptian beliefs to the Americas in the book [Heaven's Mirror], but it is very clear that he [Hancock] has had some ideas about this for a very long time.
Far longer than me.... as I related in Path of Souls (p. 139) I first became aware of the specifics in the mound builder ideas in 2006.
END QUOTE
As a side note, I wonder about the incorporation of Orion and the Milky Way into religions/cosmologies around the world. Those two features are among the most distinctive and easily recognizable things in the night sky, and I would be surprised to learn that they are not central to many belief systems. I would not be surprised to find (if there was actual any way to know) that they figured into Paleolithic religions that existed tens of thousands of years ago.
It's a reasonable point you make here and once we have got the deceit and hypocrisy in your video properly apologised for and corrected, I might be willing to discuss it with you.
Anyway . . . I will re-address the plagiarism issue. It's a holiday weekend here in the U.S. and I'm on summer break, so I'm not sure when I'll be back in the office next. I'm planning on discussing other things in your book over the course of the summer as I have time. As I said in my video, I think there are many interesting ideas in it but also some logical and factual issues. I will do my best to be fair, accurate, and objective, and to not rely on my powers of telepathy, which remain extremely under-developed.
Yes, you do need to re-address the plagiarism issue, and you need to do so in a timely way, regardless of your "summer break" -- especially so if you wish to preserve any semblance of being an honest and objective commentator on the work of those of us on what you call the "fringe". I would suggest the proper format would be to leave your existing sloppily-researched and defamatory video online, with a health-warning, as a matter of permanent record, and prominently link it to an article that you will write and a new video that you will make in which you correct your errors and omissions in that existing video.
Returning to this offer of yours, highlighted earlier -- I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email?
The answer is 'Yes, you may quote my mail if you do so representatively rather than cherry-picking passages in order further to spin your own agenda. So that there is no doubt about what I did in fact say in my mail I suggest that you reproduce it in full within an article linked to the new video that you have offered to make "to clear things up".
Thank you for your 'Cordially' at the end of your mail. Cordial is as cordial does. If you honestly and openly put right the mess you have made by publicly correcting the false and damaging accusations you have levelled against me, then yes, sure, let's be cordial with each other in the future.
Please note also, in case you are concerned, that I have no intention of taking this matter to law. What a stupid waste of everybody's time that would be! But you set yourself up as an honest and reliable commentator on the supposed errors and misrepresentations of the "fringe" so it should not be too much for me to expect honesty and reliability from you in correcting your own errors, misrepresentations and libels.
All the best
Graham
My replies interpolated with your comments. Your comments are highlighted yellow. [I've changed the highlighted text to purple italics so it will show up --AAW]
Thank you for the message. It does help me to clarify something of the history of these comparisons between Mississippian and ancient Egyptian religion/cosmology. I'm not overly familiar with the idea, as most of my work focuses on much earlier parts of North America's human past.
If you are not familiar with these comparisons then it was irresponsible of you to be in such a panty-twisting hurry to make defamatory statements about me in your video -- particularly your insinuation that I had lied about my first encounter with Moundville (e.g. QUOTE "This whole, you know 'I had never realised that Orion was a thing in Mississippian religion' -- the story [holds up book] that we get from Graham Hancock -- I think just doesn't pass the smell test to me. Surely he was aware of that... I think it's very likely that he [Hancock] took the whole idea of a connection between Egypt and ancient Mississippians -- he got that from somewhere. I don't buy for a second that he just stumbled on it when he got out of his car at Moundville... in terms of the stealing of ideas [holds up book]... I don't know [tone of voice significant here]... I'd like to see Graham Hancock clarify that all this stuff just poofed into his head -- cause that arrival story [facial expression significant here] -- I'm not buying it." END QUOTE
In these sneering, false and damaging statements (as well as others in your video) you specifically and clearly insinuate that I am involved in QUOTE "the stealing of ideas" END QUOTE. That is an extremely serious charge, capable of causing lasting harm, to lay against the reputation an internationally-known, New York Times bestselling author. If the charge of "stealing ideas" were true, and if it could be proven true, you would have been justified in making it, but since the charge is not true there is no justification whatsoever for your snickering speculations about my integrity. The bottom line here is that you failed to do due diligence before rushing rashly off to Youtube with your libels. Since you make much of the "fringe" failing to do due diligence, it is right and proper that you should be held to account when you yourself fail to meet the standards that you demand of others.
It appears I may have misunderstood that passage of your book about you being "nonplussed" at Moundville. It read to me as though you were saying you were unfamiliar with Mississippian/Egyptian similarities (specifically regarding Orion) until you arrived at Moundville. You said you had missed something in your research -- that implied to me that you were not familiar with the other discussions that came before yours in "America Before" (i.e., Greg Little's) at the time you got to Moundville. I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion. I don't have the book at home with me, so I can't review how the different sections are organized. I take you at your word, however, that it was a misreading on my part, and I apologize for that.
Rather bizarre squirming logic in the above Andrew (shall we use first name terms?). You misunderstood nothing. How I described my reaction to Moundville in the book is exactly how it happened. I certainly had the Little/Collins book "Path of Souls" in my library before that but I had not read it. I did, however, read it after my Mississippi Valley research trip -- as also I read Lankford et al. You state, QUOTE "I know that you credited Little and Collins for their discussion". END QUOTE. But this merely makes your rash and hasty rush to defame me even more reprehensible, since you knew I had credited Little and Collins with priority on the specific Moundville/Ancient Egypt connection yet failed to inform viewers of your video of this. As I said in my earlier mail, QUOTE "It is disingenuous of you to insinuate that I falsely claim priority in noting the obvious similarities between the ancient Egyptian religion and the Moundville religions when I clearly do not claim priority and when I clearly do state on the record on page 310 of America Before that I am not the first to notice these similarities. The force of your insinuation would be lost if you had quoted me specifically disclaiming priority as I do on page 310. I wonder why you chose not to do so in your video and thus to mislead your viewers on my true position?" END QUOTE
I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email?
I will return to this suggestion of yours at the end of this mail.
Also, to better understand the history of ideas about this, can you tell me if you remember when and how you first became aware of the Mississippian/Egyptian Orion parallels?
If you were a responsible scholar (and do you not, yourself, demand responsible scholarship from what you call the "fringe"?) you would have asked me this question first, before rushing to defame me on Youtube with your unevidenced "telepathic" speculations. It is peculiar that you are asking me this question now -- especially so in the light of the information given to you in my lengthy, opening email, and in the light of what I actually state in print in the book -- namely that I first became aware of the Mississippi/Egyptian Orion parallels during my 2017 visit to Moundville. I did indeed feel that I had missed something important in my research prior to that visit -- precisely because, as I also outline in my opening email, I have been talking about parallels between ancient Native American and ancient Egyptian religious ideas (with specific reference to Orion and the Milky Way) since I researched and published my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror. Having long previously commented on these parallels in the case of the Maya it would be bizarre indeed if the notice-boards at Moundville had not caught my attention and made me aware that essentially the same "path of souls" complex was present in the Mississippi Valley. But it was not prior knowledge of this that brought me to Moundville. It was just one stop on a long drive up the Mississippi Valley from New Orleans to Ohio during which Santha and I visited many mound sites on our way to witness the summer solstice at Serpent Mound.
Again, you failed to do due diligence (e.g. reading and reacting to pp 446-448 of America Before) which would have shown you that I have a history (in my 1998 book Heaven's Mirror) with the "path of souls" complex amongst ancient Native Americans and the similarities of this complex to ancient Egyptian religious ideas. It's either that (i.e.you failed to do due diligence and did not in fact read the whole book as you claim) or, if you did read the whole book, then you must have deliberately ignored these pages in order to give illusory force to your insinuations that I am involved in "the stealing of ideas".
As Greg Little acknowledges in his email cc'd to you earlier in this thread with reference to Heaven's Mirror:
QUOTE
There is a lot more relating Egyptian beliefs to the Americas in the book [Heaven's Mirror], but it is very clear that he [Hancock] has had some ideas about this for a very long time.
Far longer than me.... as I related in Path of Souls (p. 139) I first became aware of the specifics in the mound builder ideas in 2006.
END QUOTE
As a side note, I wonder about the incorporation of Orion and the Milky Way into religions/cosmologies around the world. Those two features are among the most distinctive and easily recognizable things in the night sky, and I would be surprised to learn that they are not central to many belief systems. I would not be surprised to find (if there was actual any way to know) that they figured into Paleolithic religions that existed tens of thousands of years ago.
It's a reasonable point you make here and once we have got the deceit and hypocrisy in your video properly apologised for and corrected, I might be willing to discuss it with you.
Anyway . . . I will re-address the plagiarism issue. It's a holiday weekend here in the U.S. and I'm on summer break, so I'm not sure when I'll be back in the office next. I'm planning on discussing other things in your book over the course of the summer as I have time. As I said in my video, I think there are many interesting ideas in it but also some logical and factual issues. I will do my best to be fair, accurate, and objective, and to not rely on my powers of telepathy, which remain extremely under-developed.
Yes, you do need to re-address the plagiarism issue, and you need to do so in a timely way, regardless of your "summer break" -- especially so if you wish to preserve any semblance of being an honest and objective commentator on the work of those of us on what you call the "fringe". I would suggest the proper format would be to leave your existing sloppily-researched and defamatory video online, with a health-warning, as a matter of permanent record, and prominently link it to an article that you will write and a new video that you will make in which you correct your errors and omissions in that existing video.
Returning to this offer of yours, highlighted earlier -- I'll gladly make another video to clear things up. Could I quote your email?
The answer is 'Yes, you may quote my mail if you do so representatively rather than cherry-picking passages in order further to spin your own agenda. So that there is no doubt about what I did in fact say in my mail I suggest that you reproduce it in full within an article linked to the new video that you have offered to make "to clear things up".
Thank you for your 'Cordially' at the end of your mail. Cordial is as cordial does. If you honestly and openly put right the mess you have made by publicly correcting the false and damaging accusations you have levelled against me, then yes, sure, let's be cordial with each other in the future.
Please note also, in case you are concerned, that I have no intention of taking this matter to law. What a stupid waste of everybody's time that would be! But you set yourself up as an honest and reliable commentator on the supposed errors and misrepresentations of the "fringe" so it should not be too much for me to expect honesty and reliability from you in correcting your own errors, misrepresentations and libels.
All the best
Graham
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