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Joe Taylor Repeats "Red-Headed Giant" Lie, Describes Defacing Lovelock Cave

9/10/2016

32 Comments

 
My Forbidden Archaeology students will be watching this 2015 video of Joe Taylor over the weekend so we can discuss it in class on Monday as part of the section on giants. I chose the video because Taylor, a Young Earth Creationist, is an active advocate of the idea that demonstrating the existence of giants would prove the Bible to be true and the theory of evolution to be false. 

In the preamble to his presentation of his evidence for giants, Taylor provides an "update" on the ongoing activities of the Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum. Those activities apparently included a trip to investigate Lovelock Cave (Nevada) firsthand (beginning around 7:00 in the video). Lovelock Cave is one of those sites that holds pull for just about every element of the "fringe:" giantologists, alien enthusiasts, Bigfoot believers, etc. I've written a little about the human remains from the Lovelock Cave area before (here and here).

Taylor's brief discussion of Lovelock irked me for two reasons. First, he uncritically repeats the mistaken notion that there are Paiute legends of "red-headed giants" inhabiting the cave. Second, he describes activities during his "investigation" that probably violate laws protecting archaeological sites on federal land. 

Sarah Winnemucca's "Red-Headed Giants"

Talking about his visit with some Native Americans to discuss the cave, Taylor says the following:

​"This gal here is a descendant of Chief Winnemucca, and Sarah Winnemucca was her great great aunt, I guess. This is Sarah Winnemucca, who wrote a lot about the red-headed giants -- wrote the whole story."

No, she didn't: the often-repeated claim that Sarah Winnemucca wrote about cannibalistic, red-haired giants is false.

​The source of the "red-headed giant" claim is the 1883 book by Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins titled Life Among the Piutes: Their Wrongs and Claims.  The people paraphrasing this book should take the time to actually read it: nowhere does Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins discuss "red-headed giants." The part relevant to Lovelock is the last paragraph of Chapter IV.  I'll reproduce that whole paragraph for our convenience:

"Among the traditions of our people is one of a small tribe of barbarians who used to live along the Humboldt River. It was many hundred years ago. They used to waylay my people and kill and eat them. They would dig large holes in our trails at night, and if any of our people travelled at night, which they did, for they were afraid of these barbarous people, they would oftentimes fall into these holes. That tribe would even eat their own dead – yes, they would even come and dig up our dead after they were buried, and would carry them off and eat them. Now and then they would come and make war on my people. They would fight, and as fast as they killed one another on either side, the women would carry off those who were killed. My people say they were very brave. When they were fighting they would jump up in the air after the arrows that went over their heads, and shoot the same arrows back again. My people took some of them into their families, but they could not make them like themselves. So at last they made war on them. This war lasted a long time. Their number was about twenty-six hundred (2600). The war lasted some three years. My people killed them in great numbers, and what few were left went into the thick bush. My people set the bush on fire. This was right above Humboldt Lake. Then they went to work and made tuly or bulrush boats, and went into Humboldt Lake. They could not live there very long without fire. They were nearly starving. My people were watching them all round the lake, and would kill them as fast as they would come on land. At last one night they all landed on the east side of the lake, and went into a cave near the mountains. It was a most horrible place, for my people watched at the mouth of the cave, and would kill them as they came out to get water. My people would ask them if they would be like us, and not eat people like coyotes or beasts. They talked the same language, but they would not give up. At last my people were tired, and they went to work and gathered wood, and began to fill up the mouth of the cave. Then the poor fools began to pull the wood inside till the cave was full. At last my people set it on fire; at the same time they cried out to them, "Will you give up and be like men, and not eat people like beasts? Say quick – we will put out the fire." No answer came from them. My people said they thought the cave must be very deep or far into the mountain. They had never seen the cave nor known it was there until then. They called out to them as loud as they could, "Will you give up? Say so, or you will all die." But no answer came. Then they all left the place. In ten days some went back to see if the fire had gone out. They went back to my third or fifth great-grandfather and told him they must all be dead, there was such a horrible smell. This tribe was called people-eaters, and after my people had killed them all, the people round us called us Say-do-carah. It means conqueror; it also means "enemy." I do not know how we came by the name of Piutes. It is not an Indian word. I think it is misinterpreted. Sometimes we are called Pine-nut eaters, for we are the only tribe that lives in the country where Pine-nuts grow. My people say that the tribe we exterminated had reddish hair. I have some of their hair, which has been handed down from father to son. I have a dress which has been in our family a great many years, trimmed with this reddish hair. I am going to wear it some time when I lecture. It is called the mourning dress, and no one has such a dress but my family."

Cannibals? Yes.

Red hair?  Yes.

Giants?  No. 

In fact, the word "giant" is only used once in the entire document, when the author tells us that tales about giants are "make-believe stories:" 
Picture
The inconvenient fact that Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins never discussed red-haired giants in Lovelock Cave has not stopped numerous "researchers" from proclaiming that she did. Taylor apparently made a field trip to Lovelock to search for evidence of these imagined "giants" for himself, which brings me to the second (and more troubling) part of Taylor's discussion.

The Defacement of Lovelock Cave

Joe Taylor apparently took it upon himself to deface the site during his visit.

Here's what Taylor says:

"Inside the cave -- this is inside the walls of the cave -- and the whole ceiling has been blackened. I took a little scraping of that stuff to have it analyzed.  We also . . . it looked like there's a big hand print on the wall. They were thinking it was an impression, and I said well I think it's just a . . . it's like someone put their hand in paint and smacked the wall. The hand print was a whole 12-14 inches long, you know, five fingers. So I molded that thing, on the wall, which is dang near impossible to do.  And about twenty of these BLM guys started coming up and we go "we're cooked." So they came in, looked around, and we just chatted with them a while and they went in the cave and came back out and "how do you do" and went on."
Picture
Screenshot from Taylor's presentation showing the black deposits on the ceiling that were scraped to obtain a sample.
Taylor scraped deposits off the ceiling and he used some kind of molding material on what was apparently rock art. Those are not things a person is allowed to do without a permit on a publicly-owned, federally-protected archaeological site. Here are some relevant sections of 43CFR7, which covers the protection of archaeological resources on federal land:

Section 7.4 "(a) . . . no person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under Sec. 7.8 or exempted by Sec. 7.5(b) of this part."

Section 7.5 "(a) Any person proposing to excavate and/or remove archaeological resources from public lands or Indian lands, and to carry out activities associated with such excavation and/or removal, shall apply to the Federal land manager for a permit for the proposed work, and shall not begin the proposed work until a permit has been issued." 

I'm not a lawyer, but I think what Taylor claims he did probably violates 43CFR7. Taylor's comment about his worries when officials from the Bureau of Land Management approached suggests that he knew, or was at least concerned, that what he was doing was illegal. Both of Taylor's activities (the scraping and the molding) permanently altered the cave, which is an important and well-known archaeological site (if you want to learn more about the actual archaeology of the site, the Wikipedia entry is a good place to start).  And for what purpose? To chase imaginary giants he supposes were discussed in a book that he apparently has not even bothered to read closely.

What a dumb thing to do.

Here is a webpage by someone named Ron Morehead who was apparently on this trip with Taylor. He wonders what happened to the "giant hand print" after they attempted to make a mold of it -- apparently it's no longer visible.

Imagine if every person with some kind of unsupported theory about the past took it upon himself to scrape archaeologicaldeposits from ceilings to satisfy their own unfocused curiosity, or to throw chemicals on rock art (apparently just to show it was only rock art and not an impression?).  What if every bozo with a ridiculous idea about the "Mound Builders" grabbed a shovel and went out to investigate on his own? 

Archaeological resources are irreplaceable. Do you think Joe Taylor's vigilante "investigation" of Lovelock Cave helps us learn more about it? There's obviously a cost to the permanent alteration that happens when people move things, or scrape the ceiling, or put chemicals on the wall, but what's the benefit? Archaeological sites like Lovelock Cave belong to everyone -- they are a public resource. Your privilege to "investigate" imaginary giants ends when you start having a real physical impact on things that don't belong to you.

This kind of crap isn't harmless.
32 Comments
D
9/10/2016 01:00:29 pm

The alteration of a significant archaeological site to chase giant theories, wow. Does this moron say what the analysis of black deposits on the ceiling of the cave would prove? Would the smoke from a giant's fire have a different chemical signature? Or was he looking for some sort of chemical marker that would indicate human remains had been burned there to provide evidence to the story that didn't involved giants?

Reply
Andy White
9/12/2016 02:45:12 pm

He didn't say what they hope to find, but he does say in the video (about 11:00) the results of the analysis: "proto nylon and something like blackberries." Then he shrugs and moves on.

Reply
Joe Taylor link
1/16/2019 08:57:06 pm

The alleged hand-print was not damaged by us. Someone came in after we were there and erased it. It was known about before we went there. The piece of blackened rock was an inch wide and would have eventually fallen in the dirt on the floor. The analysis was done to see what the black material was. The proto-nylon and berry juice analysis was taken from a tiny bit of stain from the latex mold from the "hand print." We did no damage to the site and the BLM team was in there for some time. The thin mold was right inside the entrance, impossible to miss. The real damage to the site was done by the state years before. You did a good job researching Winnemucca's information. We met with a local who was part of a reburial of a man 9 ft tall. There are other reports of giant red headed men there. Sarah's descendant said the Paiutes never used that cave, yet the state says they did and that the artifacts were Paiute. Want to correct those lies? You come across as someone who is trying to set the record straight on all the "lies" put out by everyone else. The ceiling was not "scraped" and the "print was erased by someone else. Please correct your own misinformation.

Reply
Andy White
1/17/2019 07:53:14 am

Did I misquote you? I was only going by what you said in the video, which pretty clearly indicates that you messed with a federally-protected archaeological site without permission. What part of what you said is wrong?

"Inside the cave -- this is inside the walls of the cave -- and the whole ceiling has been blackened. I took a little scraping of that stuff to have it analyzed. We also . . . it looked like there's a big hand print on the wall. They were thinking it was an impression, and I said well I think it's just a . . . it's like someone put their hand in paint and smacked the wall. The hand print was a whole 12-14 inches long, you know, five fingers. So I molded that thing, on the wall, which is dang near impossible to do. And about twenty of these BLM guys started coming up and we go "we're cooked." So they came in, looked around, and we just chatted with them a while and they went in the cave and came back out and "how do you do" and went on."

Jim
9/10/2016 04:41:30 pm

Just mind numbing self centered egotistical BS ! Perhaps we should start hiding history from these jerks ! They should be investigated and hopefully prosecuted with extreme prejudice !

Reply
Doug Weller link
9/11/2016 09:05:44 am

Thanks. really enjoyed reading this. These people should be prosecuted. Liked the bit about Hopkins. I edited the portion of our Wikipedia article on the story of the Si-Te-Cah which mentions here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah

Reply
Andy White
9/11/2016 09:11:41 am

I just tried the link to Nevada Magazine that is cited in the sentence about red-handed, cannibalistic giants -- it seems to be broken? I was curious about the reference.

Reply
Jose S
9/12/2016 05:19:15 am

https://issuu.com/nevadamagazine/docs/ja11_nevada_magazine

Andy White
9/12/2016 02:25:43 pm

Thanks!

Joe Taylor link
1/17/2019 10:43:00 am

Andy White: You accused me of "defacing" Lovelock Cave. As I said, we did not do that. Someone else not only defaced it, they erased it. Go after them. And while you and your fans are on your high horse, go after the State of Nevada for lying about the Paiutes. And what about all the dirt they moved in to seal off the other caves, and the huge platform they installed? Do you consider that defacement? And while your legal-minded fans are at it, check out what constitutes liable and defamation of character.

Andy White
1/17/2019 12:09:10 pm

Did you have a permit to remove samples from the cave? Here, again, are sections from 43CFR7:

Section 7.4 "(a) . . . no person may excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface, or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resource located on public lands or Indian lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit issued under Sec. 7.8 or exempted by Sec. 7.5(b) of this part."

Section 7.5 "(a) Any person proposing to excavate and/or remove archaeological resources from public lands or Indian lands, and to carry out activities associated with such excavation and/or removal, shall apply to the Federal land manager for a permit for the proposed work, and shall not begin the proposed work until a permit has been issued."

Carl Feagans link
1/17/2019 03:58:06 pm

Vandalism of this nature can be reported (as I just did) at the Nevada State Historic Preservation Officer's website on an easy to fill out online form: http://shpo.nv.gov/get-involved/report-damage-to-archaeological-sites-in-nevada

I included a short transcript of the part around 9:00 where he admits to violating ARPA and a link to the video. Added the coordinates 39°57′N 118°33′W and the National Registry of Historic Places number 84002073. For the driving directions, I just put "Federal Property in Churchill County." The SHPO should have little difficulty finding the correct agency contact for that Cultural Resource asset.

Some SHPOs are known for prosecuting cases where they can because they want to get the message out to the public that there is a risk to being stupid on public lands or historic properties. Some are less so inclined because of their overwhelming backlogs.

But I'd be willing to bet the SHPO of Nevada will at least pass on any reports through their form to the proper agency contact for that federal property. Cultural Resource Managers and Heritage Managers like to pursue ARPA cases (Archaeological Resource Protection Act of 1979) because they're often already budget constrained and there are funds to be gained by tallying up the values associated with damages, employee time, rehabilitation, mitigation, and future preservation. I know of a case where a guy looted a few dozen "arrowheads" out west and the costs ended up being well over $100,000. I know my heritage shop could do a lot of interpretation with that kind of money.

ARPA, for those that don't know, prohibits people from excavating or disturbing/removing archaeological resources on federal or Indian lands without a permit. ARPA also forbids any sales, purchase, exchange, transport, or receipt of such materials (you don't even have to be the one that did the looting/vandalism). Those who violate can face substantial fines and even a jail sentence if convicted.

I think ARPA enforcement is a wonderful tool to use on people who pretend to do archaeological research on bullshit like "giants" and the like.

Bob Jase
9/11/2016 09:46:54 am

Fringe-wooist crazies - destroying valuable cultural artifacts as well as they can.

Reply
Only Me
9/11/2016 01:33:28 pm

This is just like those two German douchebags that vandalized a cartouche in the Great Pyramid of Giza to prove the Egyptians didn't build the pyramids. The difference is they faced criminal charges for their act.

Reply
Andy White
9/11/2016 01:38:23 pm

I think the BLM would be wise to follow up on this. I'm not a lawyer or law enforcement, but it's pretty to clear that scraping residues off the ceiling violates the laws intended to prevent unauthorized damage to archaeological sites on federal property.

Reply
Killbuck
9/11/2016 06:57:15 pm

I'm a retired National Park Service Ranger and a former Chief Ranger with responsibility for cultural resource management. What is described is clearly a violation case, and worth pursuing. I think the Winnemucca District office of BLM is the jurisdiction.

I was involved in a similar case in Northern Nevada several years ago also involving a cave with significant archeological significance. There is always the dilemma of needing to make the public aware of prosecution and its deterrence, while also trying to avoid attraction and notoriety towards a sensitive location.


I live not very far from Lovelock Cave, Grimes Point and other sights including Spirit Cave. These sights are increasingly under pressure from artifact hunters and new age spiritualists among others. Officials find it increasingly difficult to protect these sites. Our region is still populated with nearly pristine sites mostly on tribal lands that are stunning in their completeness. I've been guided to a few by tribal members. Their remoteness is their only real defense.

Lastly, what did this dope expect to find in the carbon build up that would confirm either a giant or even anyone with red hair was there? He's likely just trying to appear "scientifiky".

Jim
9/11/2016 09:07:58 pm

See Huttons; "scientific method"

Tony
8/20/2019 02:37:31 pm

I find it humorous how the State can deface Lovelock Cave, put false information as to the history of such cave, yet you don't seem to care about this? Do you care about actual history or is this about preservation of your viewpoints on said history? You are more concerned about another person coming along later (whom I do not know and have never spoke with and just learned about today), who essentially touched some black material in the cave (gee I wonder how many people have done that on a weekly basis). Are you also going to prosecute the 1000's who have done it also? No, of course not.

Peter
6/29/2020 03:14:31 pm

Tony, Touching a rock is perfectly fine, assuming that the cave is open to the public that is. Touching something doesn't necessarily destroy the material that's there. Actively removing portions of the rock through scrapping does in fact destroy the material and prevents future legal investigations from obtaining the data accurately.

Also, I can only speak for myself on this, as for not drawing attention to the states "deformation" of the cave or their lying about the history my answer is this. I cant speak for sure because I am not familiar with this site or the states actions but for the Platform built in the cave and the dirt used to cover other portions of the cave I can say that the platform was probably built in a location that has not proven to be archaeologically significant and thus has a low chance of contaminating the sites record. As for the dirt covering other caves, well I really have no answer for this I couldn't even guess why they may have done this, so yes they may have defaced the cave.

Regardless though that's not the point of this article. It was meant to bring attention to this specific case of defacing of the site, which is still defacing the site and is a separate case of defacement that is unrelated to but still equally wrong as any previous case of defacement.

RiverM
9/11/2016 09:08:55 pm

I'm curious if the alleged defacer owns and used those so called treasure hunting books available for each of the fifty states and the accompanying treasure hunting law book by the same author. Is it legal to perform non-destructive testing in such places of archaeological significance, without a permit?

Reply
Killbuck
9/12/2016 08:44:50 pm

Actually no. Sampling involves at least a small amount of destructive effect. Permits are needed on federal and tribal lands, and in the permit application the specific purpose for the sampling and testing must be spelled out. This insures valid reasons for the sampling etc., rather than just curiosity. The sampling if approved, mist be monitored. Its not red tape, its necessary for proper resource preservation.

Reply
Hooper
9/12/2016 06:07:34 am

The video doesn't constitute proof. You need evidence to bring charges. What should have been written here is "if what he says is true, then..."

Reply
Lewis
9/12/2016 10:52:07 am

Hi Andy,

You should drop this information to the BLM on twitter. This is essentially how Casey Nocket was caught. While there is no video of them actually impacting the cave, their is an admission of guilt and if BLM can show changes to the cave from condition assessment reports pre- and post- visitation, they should have a decent case. Nocket could have easily claimed that the images aren't actually of her perpetrating this crime, just pretending too. I don't know. Anyways, social media got the feds attention on a number of public lands violations, might be an easier way to institute an investigation than submitting a letter or calling a voice mail.

Reply
Andy White
9/12/2016 02:27:46 pm

I tweeted this post to BLM Nevada after I wrote it - no reaction that I'm aware. I'll probably write an email when I get some time.

Reply
Hooper
9/12/2016 03:11:39 pm

Just don't do what Jason did. He falsely accused the guys on the History channel of illegally digging in a cave. There is a legal term for false accusations made in writing.

Reply
Andy White
9/12/2016 03:38:40 pm

As long as we're striving for accuracy:

A) no he didn't;

B) they're not on the History Channel anymore;

C) it's called libel.

All I did was repeat what Taylor said he did. He said he scraped stuff off the ceiling and had it analyzed. Not much ambiguity there.

Reply
Eric Stewart
1/19/2019 04:42:03 am

The only thing of interest that I know of out of Lovelock Cave is the skull with an occipital bone. These are present mostly in neanderthals but occasionally rear up in descendants and Native Americans do carry more of that lineage than most. That is really interesting and completely obscured by all the talk of giants. The skull may never get looked at because of all this psychodrama!

Reply
Andy White
1/20/2019 05:51:46 am

I think you mean occipital "bun" rather than "bone." That's probably more related to mechanics than genetics. If you want to read what I think about the Humboldt skull (not from Lovelock but from nearby, so it may be what you're talking about), go here:

https://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/bigfoot-researchers-still-insist-native-american-skull-is-not-human

Reply
Doug Weller
1/20/2019 08:28:38 am

This is from the Lovelock Cave Wikipedia article, I wrote it. Adrienne Mayor writes about the Si-Te-Cah in her book, Fossil Legends of the First Americans.[12] She suggests that the 'giant' interpretation of the skeletons from Lovelock Cave and other dry caves in Nevada was started by entrepreneurs setting up tourist displays and that the skeletons themselves were of normal size. However, about 100 miles north of Lovelock there are plentiful fossils of mammoths and cave bears, and their large limb bones could easily be thought to be those of giants by an untrained observer. She also discusses the reddish hair, pointing out that hair pigment is not stable after death and that various factors such as temperature, soil, etc. can turn ancient very dark hair rusty red.

Reply
jimg
3/2/2019 12:56:25 am

Very nice post Andy. I find the oral history mentioned interesting. Given that the history was a creation of the winners and given the assertion that little evidence of routine canabalistic activity was found, the paute leaders may have used the occasional behavior as a means to vilify the enemy. I think it bears mention that this history clearly describes genocide. My understanding is that in the US west at this time native American cultures were experiencing significant shrinkage of water and food resources and the elimination of other competitors would be necessary. Also curious is the description of the people as red haired AND starving, people lacking protein over prolonged periods have redish orange hair as a result. I would say the red hair was likely true even before death and decay.

One of the ancient alien guys repeated the Giants story as originating from both the oral history and the batcrap miners in 1911; of course all evidence disappeared. He also offered three skulls in a backroom cabinet (because they were native American remains) at a museum near the Lovelock site. One skull he noted had a very large jaw; I noticed they had damn good teeth, straight and undecayed, for being so old. Not sure what to make of that, but I guess that may be another indicator of Neanderthal lineage?

I fail to see any connection between the existence of giants and creationism; giantism would seem to be a competitive disadvantage from the standpoint of food and water. In reality wouldn't giants only survive during resource rich periods? What makes sense is the existence of giants as genetic outlyers. I fail to connect any of those dots that somehow explain intelligent design because of a single small group of giants the point here is even if these were giants it would not offer a path to creationist theory, it would simply support the survival of the fittest.

Reply
Steven Snyder
7/5/2020 09:51:59 am

Traveling assumptions.. you link one lame and unproven theory to the next.

Red hair doesn't necessarily mean they were malnourished so dont tie that bs to anything else.

They lived on a f'n lake and ate weird shit that modern humans even the Piutes wouldnt touch.

So there goes your goofy dieing of thirst theory also.

You probably should lay off the weed for a little while.

You work for the Smithsonian institute? Lmmfao

Reply
Steven Snyder
7/4/2020 02:55:19 am

What a bunch of cry babies. Scared of giants? Cant handle truth?

Reply



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