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Jim Vieira's Visit to "Forbidden Archaeology"

9/22/2016

15 Comments

 
Well, that was fun!

And because I know that it's sometimes hard to reliably detect the presence/absence of sarcasm in the written word, I'll clarify and say that I'm not being sarcastic: Jim Vieira's visit to my Forbidden Archaeology class was legitimately fun. 
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Class photo from yesterday: instead of "cheese" we're all saying "double rows of teeth."
Those of you who followed this blog prior to the #Swordgate debacle know that I spent a lot of my writing energy in 2014 and 2015 discussing issues related to "giants." It's a topic that has interested me since I stumbled across accounts of "giant skeletons with a double row of teeth" in the nineteenth century county histories of Indiana while preparing CRM reports in the early 1990's. The story of my arrival to the topic is not that different from Vieira's (he came across the stories by accident, also). I had recently become aware of the online newspaper archives of the Library of Congress and was working on the "double rows of teeth" issue when Search for the Lost Giants aired. It was strange for me to watch that program, because I found myself hoping that I didn't get scooped on my linguistic solution to the strange dental descriptions but also wishing that their intense focus on the topic would help dispel some of the bizarre claims about "double rows of teeth" that have been around at least since Brad Steiger's 1978 book World's Before Our Own.
I went at the issue of "double rows of teeth" pretty hard in my blog after that original post, gathering documentary evidence (primarily in the form of newspaper accounts and dictionary entries) to demonstrate how changes in the popularity of a combination of linguistic idioms explains most of the cases of "double rows of teeth." I used specific examples to illustrate my case, including several that Vieira had discussed repeatedly. I admit to being frustrated that my ideas about "double rows of teeth," which I felt constituted a well-researched, relatively elegant, and original solution to an interesting riddle seemed to go unacknowledged by Vieira. That frustration came through in my last post on the subject.
Vieira and I talked about all that and a lot more during his visit to Columbia. Some of those conversations were private and some were in front of the class. We more-or-less beat to death numerous inter-connected issues related to the topic of "giants" over the course of three days. We talked about the nature of science, the nature of evidence, the many and varied motivations and psychologies of the "fringe" world, the relationships between the "fringe" and "mainstream," strategies for communication, human anatomy, the price of tea in China, etc. In my opinion, there really wasn't much of substance about which we had significant disagreement (including "double rows of teeth"). One sticking point was my contention, in which I remain firm, that the New England Patriots are, in fact, evil cheaters. That's part of my belief system and I'm not budging. I think we did tentatively agree, however, that all New York City professional sports teams suck, and also that the Dallas Cowboys suck, have always sucked, and will suck until the end of time. I may be embellishing that a little bit.

A couple of the students in Forbidden Archaeology collected video of Vieira (totalling about six hours, including both class sessions, a one-on-one interview with him, and Vieira and me discussing various issues related to giants) for their final project. They've got control of all that footage for now. It will be really interesting to see what they produce from it. Vieira and I agreed that we both need to give their project the green light before it will be made public. I'll keep you posted on that.

In the meantime, here's a short clip of Vieira in class yesterday. I don't remember the exact question to which he was responding, but his answer speaks for itself.
15 Comments
Randal Taylor
9/22/2016 11:54:16 am

A fringe believer that acts like a normal human when confronted? Amazing!

Can't wait to see any video that may come about. Although I'm on the line about giants is always been interesting to me. They fall in line with Bigfoot quite easily.

Great job :)

Reply
Andy White
9/22/2016 12:40:03 pm

I'm looking forward to seeing what the students put together, also. There's some degree of daylight between Vieira and I in terms of our interests and approaches, but I felt we had a pretty solid agreement on process and the importance of mechanisms for sorting the credible from the non-credible. He's a bright person who is genuinely curious and open to finding new ways to solve problems. It was fun.

Reply
Jim
9/22/2016 12:31:53 pm

Interesting video, your students have gotta be enjoying your class !
When discussing the Patriots and Cowboys was this related to giants ? I mean they have some pretty large hoggies on those teams.

Reply
Andy White
9/22/2016 12:44:45 pm

We did not use class time to discuss football. I will extend my remarks now to state for the record that the entire NFC East is evil, and I have trouble figuring out who to root against when those teams play each other. So I guess it does have something to do with the Giants. I've gotten out of the habit of following football closely these days (for a variety of reasons), but my dislike for the NFC East will live on even if I never watch another game.

Reply
Annie Cloutier
9/22/2016 01:51:48 pm

"The Giants" was a very interesting program I enjoyed watching it. A stone mason bring different skill sets to understanding the construction and materials used by these ancient people . The evidence found in the skulls, graves, weapons or ceremonial artifacts will in time surface if they have not all been destroyed. I look forward to learning more about Jim Vieira's quest !

Reply
RiverM
9/22/2016 07:41:22 pm

Cliché, but a very down to earth guy, literally too. When everyone's having fun it's a win. I'm hoping for that green light as this is an interesting project.

Reply
Andy White
9/23/2016 05:57:25 am

I found Vieira to be very easy to interact with, and his honesty and forthrightness were refreshing. His unambiguous statements about the lack of an academic conspiracy are important, I think, given where he's been and where he's at now. When you try to play the "conspiracy" card to explain why facts supporting your argument do not seem to exist, you've already lost by removing yourself from the realm where you can have a rational, evidence-based discussion. Vieira understands that very well and I'm glad he was willing to communicate his thoughts on the subject so clearly.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/23/2016 10:50:31 am

In the case of the tall remains, there is abundant evidence that Hrdlcka, member of Eugenics Society and ardent supporter of Aryanism, simply dispossed of the evidence. His "work" in "re- classification" of human remains presents the current keepers of the Smithsonian collection with a tremendous problem. It will take substantial money to undo the damage he did.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/23/2016 11:03:26 am

There is a ton of garbage out there.

My current working hypothesis is that an X mt DNA population crossed to the Americas and first appears the Canadian Red Paint people.

They then evolved into Canadian Red Ocher, followed by Old Copper Culture, followed by Adena, followed by contact era Andaste,

Once again, their neighbors remembered them as being assholes.

Reply
Susan C Davis
9/23/2016 12:09:56 pm

Wait one minute. You and Jim assured me that y'all had hashed out all the difficulties, and you both agreed that both were being perfectly polite and getting along famously. But then you have the unmitigated gall to report here in your post that you assailed him with your belief "that the New England Patriots are, in fact, evil cheaters"???? How COULD you, Andy? Especially when you, Jim, and I know that you are dead wrong?! Belichick is a GOD!

Reply
Andy White
9/23/2016 01:34:52 pm

I never said we agreed on everything. And I stand by my evaluation of the Patriots, which I think accords with all available evidence.

Reply
JM
9/23/2016 12:42:42 pm

Regarding the subject of conspiracy, maybe it would be interesting or insightful for participants in the class and readers of this blog to look into the question of why so many modern academics are unfamiliar with the more credible seven foot-plus skeletal finds referenced in the anthropological work of Don W Dragoo, William S Webb and the Smithsonian's own Bureau of Ethnology reports that were conducted under the supervision of Cyrus Thomas (often referred to as the father of archaeology) and Michigan's own Col. PW Norris (who was also responsible for designing and surveying most of Michigan's road network as well as the road network withinYellowstone national park). Why aren't these works studied in depth in today's classroom setting? Is it to spare confusion because the classifications have changed (i.e. Adena - Eastern Woodland etc) or for other reasons like questionable measuring techniques and or height calculation formulas? These are the questions that give weight to the arguments of and without a doubt are pondered by some of the more serious fringe researchers out there. If these questions could be satisfactorily answered it would lay some of the conspiracy claims to rest.

Reply
Andy White
9/23/2016 01:38:27 pm

I don't disagree with the idea that a thorough re-examination of the more credible reports of large individuals would help. Vieira and I discussed it and I think we have a tentative agreement to work together on it. Speaking for myself, I can say that I'm interested in the problem. As I said when I first started writing about "giants" in 2014, however, you have to get rid of all the nonsense first before you can hope to have data that you can really analyze and try to interpret with some confidence. That's where most of my efforts have gone so far.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
9/26/2016 09:15:03 am

Hi guys -

Whenever you undertake your re-examination, be sure to add this "Adena" (Andaste= "Black Pole"?) cultural feature to Webb's list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D4OK8Vcj7E

Reply
Laura Lee hunter
7/9/2022 08:05:38 pm

Hello I am just a regular person who has came across a giant skeleton. I am trying to find the only person that I would want to show it to that would be Jim. If anyone could please have him email me that would be great thanks have a good day.

Reply



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