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But Wait . . . There's ANOTHER Sword!

12/16/2015

23 Comments

 
I wasn't planning on writing one blog post today, let alone two (we've got relatives coming for the holidays and I spent most of the morning crawling around in my attic trying to figure out how the #$&@ some previous occupant had wired in the three-way switches for the hallway light). But when duty calls, you answer.

I wrote a short post earlier today about J. Hutton Pulitzer's latest claim: an alleged Roman sword allegedly discovered some years ago in the waters off of Oak Island, Nova Scotia. Knowing nothing about Roman swords, I asked for assistance from whoever might be reading. An alert reader who identified himself as Doug Crowell pointed me in the direction of the website "Roman Officer Arts & Design," where a very similar sword is pictured. That website is attached to a store in South Beach, Florida, run by David Xavier Kenney.  

For the sake of clarity, I'll call the sword in the Pulitzer article the "Nova Scotia sword" and I'll call Kenney's sword the "Florida sword."

We still don't know much about the Nova Scotia sword. As far as I know, the "white paper" that Pulitzer has promised is not available. I emailed Pulitzer to ask when it will be available. I will let you know if/when I get a response.

Kenney's description of the Florida sword (with images dated 2005) identifies it as Roman gladiator ceremonial sword made of "solid caste brass using the lost wax technique," dating to the 2nd-3rd century AD.  Kenney says the sword came from "An Art Dealer from the Netherlands, purported to have originated from a German Collection."  He says the sword appears in the series Experiencing Rome -- I'm going to try to get it though the library.  
Picture
The hilts of the Nova Scotia and Florida swords are, as far as I can tell, identical.  I don't see anything in the comparison to suggest these swords were cast using different molds. (It's also possible one was made as a copy from a mold produced using the other). The measurements are consistent, also: Kenney reports that the "statue handle" of the Florida sword measures 17.5 cm, which is just what the tape measure next to the Nova Scotia sword shows. [Update: I have received written permission from Mr. Kenney to use his sword image, which you do not control, Hutton].

The hilts are so alike that I originally wondered if these could actually be the exact same sword. The blades of the swords appear to differ in length, however, with the Nova Scotia sword being at least a few centimeters longer (it appears to measure about 50 cm in the photo in the article, while Kenney says the Florida sword is 46.5 cm long).  When you scale the Nova Scotia sword so that the size of the hilt matches the size of the hilt on the Florida sword, it appears much longer than the Florida sword.  Apparently one or both photos were taken at a somewhat oblique angles.

Picture
Other than the obvious physical similarities, is there some other connection between the Florida and Nova Scotia swords?  I don't know.  But consider this statement at the top of the Roman Officer Art & Design main page:

"There have been several extremely important new discoveries made concerning ancient non-indigenous peoples in North America. Two of the discoveries have been made by separate historical archeological research teams; both of the team leaders have shared information that coincides with some of my research on this subject." 

(As you might guess, Kenney's main interest in pre-Columbian contact with the America's is the Romans: you can read about it on this page.)

Is Hutton Pulitzer one of the "archaeological research teams"? Do Kenney and Pulitzer know each other?

What are the chances that a sword nearly identical to one kept in a Florida collection turns up in Nova Scotia? 

Perhaps all of these questions will be addressed in the "white paper" when it is released.  

I've sent out some feelers to my friend who work in the Mediterranean, hoping to get some decent opinions about the sword(s) and whether or not they could be Roman. I have also inquired to the email address on the Roman Officer website about any additional details available about the Florida sword. I'll let you know what I find out.

23 Comments
Terry J. Deveau link
12/16/2015 08:45:16 pm

There are now some informed critical comments by people who know about swords and such in the comments to the Boston Standard article, Esp. Leah23 and Jan Pospisil

Reply
Kel Hancock
12/16/2015 08:57:23 pm

This just gets better and better.

Reply
Jeff Plunkett
12/16/2015 10:15:27 pm

Okay, I'm going to call BS on this supposed sword. While not technically scientific, I have spent quite a bit of time today doing Google Images searches on both this supposed "sword" and various terms like "Roman gladiator ceremonial sword". I haven't been able to come up with anything that even sort of resembles this artifact. It resembles a sword only in a very general sense of the shape as it doesn't even have a point or a defined blade edge. And how the heck can they call it Roman? It has no definitive Roman characteristics so I don't know how they managed that identification. My prediction is no "white paper" will be produced and no more will be heard about this "smoking gun".

Reply
RedOrchid
12/17/2015 02:40:01 am

Dear Jeff,

I'm glad to hear that you put such amazing stock in Google. Also Thank you for informing us of the small area of your research. Perhaps you should get out of your house more... Get out to some museums and see these kind of artifacts with your real eyes. This is very similar to a lot of styles of swords in that era.

They do not have sharp blades because they are weathered. When metal sits in the ground for a long time, it corrodes. ALSO if these swords were massed produced, they may have the same hilt for different blades. Therefore the lengths may vary.

No more will be heard about this because it challenges our ideas or ego.

Thanks!

Reply
Jan p
12/17/2015 03:14:15 am

If it's similar to a lot of styles "from that era", why don't you link to a few examples?
Both "swords" have obvious artificial patinas, that's not how weathered bronze swords look like. Real swords are often found with quite an edge, or at the very least with a blade profile - not blank slabs of metal.
Even a ceremonial sword would be made to look like a sword - the curious that this flat blade crossection is very often a feature of ultra cheap chinese fakes.
Also, nothing on this links these objects to the romans - as someone mentioned already, the figure could be anything from a poor copy of celtic hilts to herakles or Atlas.
Fringe pseudohistory fans want to believe, that's the ral problem. Exactly the same issue with the Tucson swords - they looked nothing like swords and nobody bothered to consult any sword experts.

Erica Ward
12/20/2015 05:47:41 pm

Given that the Romans reached the Canary Islands in the first century, and hurricanes often blow off Africa towards North America and up the East coast towards New England and Canada, even if the sword were genuine, it would be more likely that it was debris from a Roman shipwreck in the Eastern Atlantic. Debris from the Japanese tsumani has washed up in Oregon.

Michael Wehar
12/17/2015 12:24:14 am

I appreciate that you shared this with us. Thank you. :)

Reply
Jan P
12/17/2015 05:21:27 am

Looking at Kenney's collection, there are quite a few pieces which I'm pretty sure are fakes.

frex -
these helmets:
http://romanofficer.com/roman_officer_permanent_collection/roman_naval_helmet.html
http://romanofficer.com/pages/roman_helmet.htm

The shape is what a person who's never worn a real helmet imagines roman helmets look like.
AFAIK there are no finds like this, the only depiction remotely similar is on the Trajan's column worn by a few praetorians. (not officers)
For the obvious difference between the real ones and these fakes, see for example:
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet-niederbieber.html

Another group are the eagle head swords/knives:
http://romanofficer.com/roman_officer_permanent_collection/roman_field_parazonium.html
http://romanofficer.com/pages/short_roman_sword.htm
http://romanofficer.com/pages/roman-officer-spatha-and-chape.htm

The blades are clunky and again quite ill shaped, the patina on the bronze looks excessive compared to how relatively untouched the iron parts are. Roman swords with whole piece bronze hilts are also not a thing. (iirc)

Of course, if you were making a fake, based on a (let's say) Byzantine sculpture, you wouldn't necessarily get the details right:
http://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o673/AlaeSwords/AlaeSwords044/tetrarch-swords.jpg

For comparison - an eagle spatha which I think could be real:
http://sword-site.com/thread/299/roman-sword-spatha-semispatha-paraspatha

Interestingly, if you look for this sword online, you'll find I'm not the only one certain of Kenney's stuff being fake.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29731&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

"Be careful, the Xavier Kenney site is FILLED with fakes. (What's funnier is the bizarre long-winded fantasy descriptions he comes up with, interpreting a few scratches as epic poetry.) Some of the real artifacts are misidentified. Worse than useless site, in the end. But those eagle-headed swords of his are obvious fakes. "

The fact two different conspiracy theorists and pseudohistory fans own similar looking "swords" should point to both being fakes, not genuine.

Reply
Gina Torresso
12/17/2015 06:58:38 am

This sword is only 19 inches long, and from what I understand they also found a Roman shipwreck off Oak Island the "Ceremonial Sword" was found on it.
Pulitzers supposed "White Paper" is due to release early 2016. This article also stated. "J. Hutton Pulitzer, lead researcher and historic investigator, along with academics from Ancient Artifact Preservation Society, have compiled a paper on the finding, which is scheduled to be published in full in early 2016."

Reply
Desmond
12/17/2015 09:58:23 am

It's quite possible some Roman galley got blown out to sea and landed up at North America. it's not very probably that those sailors would make it back to tell their tale.

Who travels across an unknown ocean and brings a "ceremonial" sword? That makes little sense. a REAL sword, a working sword, definitely. Don't leave home without one.

Reply
Mike Jones
12/17/2015 05:23:15 pm

Not sure why you took down the comparison photos but Colavito still has them up.http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/j-hutton-pulitzer-alleges-a-roman-sword-was-found-off-oak-island-several-decades-ago

Reply
MIke
12/18/2015 05:45:10 am

Please top putting whitepaper in quotes. I know Pulitzer is a buffoon, but white papers are real things. When you put it in quotes, it reads as you believing the term white paper is something Pulitzer made up. When he finally releases his hot mess of a white paper that is an attempt at being one but no wheres close, that is when it would be ideal to wrap it quotes.

Reply
Mike Jones
12/18/2015 06:20:21 am

This just in over at Colavito! You can buy these swords on ebay! hahahahahahahahahaha! This is priceless!

http://www.ebay.it/itm/PARTICOLARE-SCULTURA-COMMEMORATIVA-SPADA-BRONZEA-ROMANA-CON-IMPUGNATURA-STATUA-/301746768453


Reply
Pablo
12/18/2015 10:19:00 am

Someone should contact Linens N'Things because they are making cast iron replicas of that exact size 19"; where did they get their original? another one from Oak Island? :D http://www.lnt.com/product/statues-and-figurines/796131-2448607/design-toscano-sp1086-gladiators-sword-of-pompeii.html?utm_source=googleproductads&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiA-s6zBRDWudDL2Iic4QQSJAA4Od3Xz1_PbDa4VBWDazaFBcLOtlQojAVPUdJilrFGZ2F7hhoChPHw_wcB

Reply
Imhotep link
12/21/2015 02:46:54 am

Just bought one on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Toscano-Gladiators-Sword-Pompeii/dp/B009QU8BDI

Reply
Imhotep
12/21/2015 02:54:43 am

BTW, you might want to look up relevant info on "Fair use" (USA) and "Fair dealing" (Canada). It is NOT a copyright violation to reproduce a copyrighted work for purposes of criticism and/or review.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

Reply
James Lawrence
1/13/2016 01:28:41 pm

Andy - did you every secure a copy of 'Experiencing Rome'? Apologies if you did and mentioned results in another blog posting.

Would be interesting to see if the sword is indeed shown in the book.

Amazon.ca provides many of the pages (look inside feature) - but alas none show the sword:
http://www.amazon.ca/Experiencing-Rome-Culture-Identity-Empire/dp/0415212847

Interesting to note that the Index at end of book provides no mention/reference of "sword" or "Commodus". While it does make mention of "gladiatorial games" for pages "9-10" and "113-114" I can view pages 9 and 10 and there are (again) no pictures or mention of the sword on these pages. Perhaps page(s) 113-114?

Reply
James Lawrence
1/13/2016 01:31:38 pm

LOL - I just realized you are referring to the DVD series rather than the book. Question still stands though - did you have a chance to view?

Reply
Andy White
1/13/2016 01:51:40 pm

Yep - you can read about it here: http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/hercules-commodus-and-the-florida-sword

Darlan Almeida de Oliveira
10/13/2017 07:53:04 pm

Sou Brasileiro e tenho uma espada dessa que está no museu. Como me comunico?
I don't speek Ingles. I speek português. +55 21 9 64688591

Reply
Pablo
10/15/2017 05:16:28 pm

Olá, envie-me um email em raw.pablo@gmail.com, inclua fotos que mostrem os detalhes de todos os ângulos possíveis e conte-nos a história da sua espada. Obrigado!

Reply
israel p.
12/17/2018 01:15:22 am

i just purchased one of these swords from india. they are fakes/replicas made to look roman! there is 2 other designs being sold right now, different "soldiers" on the handle/hilt.

just wanted to inform everybody once and for all thats been debating about it. its a fake/replica being made in india by a world class brass & iron smith, he does great work on modern items and decorations, but hes ok/crappy at faking replicas or older items

Reply
Pablo Raw
12/17/2018 04:44:21 am

Hi Israel,
as you know we have an ongoing investigation regarding the origin of the swords, photos of your swords and info about the company would be helpful. We'll appreciate it if you can send them to raw.pablo@gmail.com. Thanks and looking forward to hear from you!

Reply



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