Andy White Anthropology
  • Home
  • Research Interests
    • Complexity Science
    • Prehistoric Social Networks
    • Eastern Woodlands Prehistory
    • Ancient Giants
  • Blog
  • Work in Progress
    • The Kirk Project >
      • Kirk 3D Models list
      • Kirk 3D Models embedded
      • Kirk 2D images >
        • Indiana
        • Kentucky
        • Michigan
        • Ontario
      • Kirk Project Datasets
    • Computational Modeling >
      • FN3D_V3
    • Radiocarbon Compilation
    • Fake Hercules Swords
    • Wild Carolina >
      • Plants >
        • Mosses
        • Ferns
        • Conifers
        • Flowering Plants >
          • Grasses
          • Trees
          • Other Flowering Plants
      • Animals >
        • Birds
        • Mammals
        • Crustaceans
        • Insects
        • Arachnids
        • Millipedes and Centipedes
        • Reptiles and Amphibians
      • Fungi
  • Annotated Publications
    • Journal Articles
    • Technical Reports
    • Doctoral Dissertation
  • Bibliography
  • Data

Bored With The Same Old Debate About The "Copper Culture"?  Maybe You Should Look Into The 500-Million-Year-Old "Super Ancient Copper Culture" 

4/8/2015

24 Comments

 
PictureCopper arrowhead embedded in 500-million-year-old sandstone: may or may not have been used to kill a dinosaur.
The idea that ancient copper mining in Michigan's Upper Peninsula was connected to the European Bronze Age has a long history.  I don't know who the first person was to suggest such a connection, but the idea has surely been around since the 1800s.  It is still around today, with claims predicated on much of the same "evidence" that has been cited for the last hundred years. Susan Martin's (1995) paper in The Michigan Archaeologist (you can read it here) goes through many of these claims.  None of them holds up to scrutiny.

A recent attempt to breath life into the "debate" about Old World peoples mining copper in the New World comes from J. Hutton Pulitzer, a treasure hunter and one of the self-described "foremost Inventors in modern times."  Pulitzer began this quest by getting himself kicked off one of the larger online communities of people interested in ancient copper use in the Great Lakes.  When I interacted with Hutton on that site, he accused me of being "out of date" on all of the new information that was available, and indicated that I should listen to his audio interviews in order to educate myself.

Fair enough.

So far, I have only listened to one interview.  In the description of this episode (titled "
Copper Culture- Where are the Skeletons, Camps, Boats and Signs of Civilizations?"), we are assured that all of the hard evidence that skeptics say is absent has, in fact, already been found.  The two people who are going to tell us about these fantastic discoveries, Dave Towle and Scott Mitchen, are presented as experts because they've spent a combined 89 years looking for sites. We are told that they are credible because they, unlike some "white-haired, pony-tailed professor who believes he knows everything," had put "boot to dirt" and gone out to investigate firsthand. 

Over the course of the hour, the guests make many assertions about artifacts and other things that they have found.  Some of these -- melted copper, a furnace/casting site, etc. -- sound interesting, but as far as I know there are no photos posted online so that we can see them for ourselves (this includes the allegedly melted/cast "starfish" piece Hutton specifically says he's going to post a photo of - maybe it's around but I haven't been able to find it yet [see addendum below]). So most of the interview is just a string of assertions and speculation, not connected to anything that the audience can use to judge the evidence.
Is it that difficult to post a photo or two?

In the absence of photos or any other tangible way to evaluate the guests' interpretations of the incredible things they claim to have found, I suggest you listen especially carefully to the portion of the interview from about 43:20 to 48:30.  In this segment, you will hear the guests state that they have found copper tools inside blocks of sandstone that are 500 million years old.  You will hear a thoughtful discussion of several explanations for this, ranging from (and I'm paraphrasing here) "were they shot into the sandstone when it was soft?" to "polar shifts" to "Man was around then."  A little later (about 50:00) we get a mention of "megalithic dinosaur bones" that one of the guests has found on the bottom of Lake Superior. 

Now, I think this 500-million-year-old Super Ancient Copper Culture is a game changer for this new exploration of copper mining in ancient North America.  At least it's much more interesting than tired tales of Minoans and Phoenicians. 
In his intro to this interview, Hutton warns us that, unlike stodgy academics, he's going to "address as many sides as possible to talk about the Copper Culture," including the dramatic idea that New World copper mining actually started twelve thousand years ago or more.  That's great, because the hypothesis of 500-million-year-old super ancient copper miners hunting dinosaurs to extinction (I'm adding that last part myself - why not teach the controversy?) clearly fits the bill for the "or more" category.

At the end of the interview, Hutton assures us once again that "these are real finds by real people."  These, in fact, are the experts since no academic would ever touch such controversy. Given how "volatile" this idea of a 500-million-year-old Super Ancient Copper Culture is, I will expect future interviews
in this series to, as promised, fully explore the idea.  Hutton, I think you've found your true calling.  Great job on the interviewing. Maybe post some photos next time?


Picture
Addendum (04/09/2015):  In response to this blog, Hutton Pulitzer has posted a photo of the "starfish" piece of copper that is described as being melted/cast.  I reproduce it here so you can see it for yourself.  Although I do not have the expertise to determine conclusively if this is just a natural piece of copper, it certainly does not have the regular shape or even surfaces that I would anticipate would be produced by a casting process. The photo does not convince me that this piece of copper was made by humans - opinions?

In addition to posting this photo, Hutton also posted a screenshot showing that the interview I discuss in this blog post has been played nearly 76,000 times.  It is amazing to me (and somewhat disheartening) that apparently I was the first person out of tens of thousands of listeners who actually asked to see the "artifact" they said that we should see.  That's kind of a bummer.

24 Comments
Greg Little
4/8/2015 07:59:48 pm

Their website: http://copperculture.info

Reply
Hutton Pulitzer link
4/8/2015 10:32:20 pm

Andy, you are right for calling me out, forgot to post the photos. Corrected that. Take a look.

Reply
Andy White
4/8/2015 11:26:39 pm

Thanks Hutton. I have reproduced the photo in an addendum.

Reply
Ken Alvin
8/15/2019 04:56:04 am

So how do you know that is a 500 million year old copper casting artifact ? Looks more like a billon years old to me? ???

Reply
Don Spohn
4/9/2015 02:17:17 am

Robin,
I can agree, this specimen appears to have been subjected to melting and its shape was more or less determined by container parameters. But, I see this sample as entirely created and formed by nature. I cannot discern any “marks of man,” which might define it as an artifact.
All native copper was anciently associated with heat, which melted most copper to a point where it ran into crevices found in near by rocks. Occasionally, it ran into natural rock basins with open tops, or into crevices too large to fill with nearby available melted copper and thus we see specimens like this one with obvious melted characteristics. If, as usually occurs, rock crevices were packed full with the weight of melted copper (liquid finds its own level), the signs of melting are not so typical or easily recognized. Thus, more rare, obvious signs of melting are often erroneously confused with smelting and casting activities.
Had this specimen been cast by man, it would be more regular in size, and especially in thickness. Notice, protrusions in the bottom of the natural stone basin protruded up creating natural holes and depressions. There is no chance that this specimen was deliberately formed by man. It is 100 percent natural.

Reply
Robin Mueller link
4/9/2015 06:25:48 am

Here's the follow up reply that Don Spohn sent me as a follow up to my first question to him about the copper piece in question:

Robin,

Hope you received my reply to your question on the specimen with signs of melting. In my many long years in the study of ancient man, I have formed a couple of hypothesis about man in general. (1) Man was created with a need for spiritual associations and activities. (2) Most people feel a strong urge to fill spiritual needs with something, and do so in one way or another. And many modern TV programs provide popular spiritual alternatives.

Unfortunately, logic is too often left behind in filling spiritual needs. Therefore, emotion is the tool of choice in defending spiritual-like beliefs. We, who use logic, facts, science, etc. are wicked in their eyes. The closer we come to exposing their errors, the more we are seen as the wicked enemy.

Fortunately, most are not so extreme in the defense of irrational spiritual-like beliefs, and can eventually be won over with facts.

Don

Reply
Davud L Ulrich
11/16/2015 10:40:02 am

So...what's the metalologist report say......I'd like to see someone like Chris Dunn put his metal lab to the task...If it has been melted, work or anything other then its "natural" state, they can even tell if its in its natural condition from, just guessing, 2 billion years ago....

Forget religion and visual appearance. Comment made earlier that it may have "run" into a natural cavity. Funny thing about scientists who worked with metal (I know a few), they don't put up with "maybe's" or "I thinks...". Just the facts, madam, just the facts...

I really need to get out my "roadside geology" book and look up this stuff...

Reply
Don Spohn
11/16/2015 01:30:46 pm

Davud - Hard to obtain resources must be expended to determine scientifically if the above specimen was manipulated in anyway by man. The absence of any organized or purposeful traits clearly indicate, but do not prove, nature was the master craftsman. There is no good reason to wast resources to prove man was not involved in its creation. As often occurs in the study of copper, the lack of knowledge about copper caused error. Sure, it was melted, as was all copper. And normally, it is not as obvious. If we had funds to study, this specimen, I would prefer to see them used to radio carbon test carbon found in direction connection with copper. There are so many specimens laying around untested and dates are always useful. Finally, glaciers and other forces in nature can mimic most marks of man on copper, externally and internally. But, man's marks are usually more organized than are natures.

Reply
LARRY FURO
11/16/2015 02:41:53 pm

believe if you check around to people in the know of the UP, you'll have a united opinion that this is a piece of float copper that has been pushed, pounded & smoothed by glacial action....anything can be created, though & have seen the work of 'splash' copper being made by one of the above mentioned 'persons', go to any UP mineral & gem shop & you can see the process being done.

Reply
David L Ulrich
11/16/2015 06:44:49 pm

So just for the record, not having enough money is an excuse and not a reason. I will do some checking around and get back here. There seems to be more then enough money for people to say no but never enough to back to up with engjneers. Sorry, no go.

Reply
Andy White
11/17/2015 06:39:50 am

I don't have the expertise to tell what has been melted and what has not based on just looking at a photograph, but I put some stock in the opinions of Don and Larry for sure - these guys have a looked at a lot of this stuff and have a lot of hands-on experience. It isn't up to professional archaeologists to somehow "test" every "artifact" that someone thinks demonstrates something out-of-the-ordinary. Generally, I think the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If someone thinks that piece was melted by humans, he/she should lay out the case for why that's so.

Reply
David L Ulrich h
11/17/2015 08:57:29 am

So since their view is an opinion (it looks pounded or melted), they don't have to do diligence. I have never ever said to test everything (although I see that Scott Wolter is required to test everything even the incredible comment about sulfuric acid - who came up with that idiot comment), it would nice to test this one. If any archaeologist states an opinion, it should be labeled - opinion - and labeled "without chemical engineering documentation for proof. I think it is stupid to claim
that "I think it looks....".

Reply
Andy White
11/17/2015 09:26:51 am

I believe I am entitled to an opinion just like everyone else, despite the fact that I'm a professional archaeologist. This is what I wrote:

"I reproduce it here so you can see it for yourself. Although I do not have the expertise to determine conclusively if this is just a natural piece of copper, it certainly does not have the regular shape or even surfaces that I would anticipate would be produced by a casting process. The photo does not convince me that this piece of copper was made by humans - opinions?"

I'm not aware of there being some kind of prohibition on professionals about offering an opinion. In my opinion, it doesn't look like what I would expect a piece of cast copper to look like. But, as I've said several times now, that's only my opinion. I don't have any expertise in that area. Discussing things in a blog like this is a way of soliciting opinions from those who have more expertise than I do.

Reply
David L Ulrich
11/17/2015 10:49:48 am

I'm trying to get a "chemical engineer" (professional), licensed by the state and in the "metal" industry to be interested. His first comment was "This whole thing is about people who have little to do"....

Reply
Andy White
11/17/2015 10:50:38 am

Ha. Keep us posted!

Reply
David L Ulrich
11/17/2015 11:01:13 am

as a side note, your university should have a chemistry, physics, and engineering dept. Any chance of having them jump in...

Reply
Andy White
11/19/2015 06:03:32 am

There is a little bit of irony here, as "looks like . . ." is often put forward as a sufficient standard of proof for those advocating that cultural diffusion is required to explain similarities between widely separated cultures, etc. I don't think "looks like" is sufficient in those cases to prove anything. "Looks like" is an observation. Interpretation is something different.

The copper "artifact" in question here was said to "look like" it had been melted. To the untrained eye it does appear that way. However, to trained eyes (like those of Larry and Don) it does not. I value the opinions of those guys because they have a lot of experience with copper. And to my untrained eye the piece does not "look like" a piece of metal that has been melted and cast in any regular way. Why would someone go through the trouble to melt/smelt copper and then let it all run out into a big irregular puddle? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

What physical evidence of melting/smelting is there in this case besides "looks like"? What analysis could be done to determine if this is a human-produced artifact or not? And what is the context of this "artifact"? That last one is very important - even if this is a melted piece of copper, how do we know it wasn't produced during the historic period? In other words, what would an analysis actually tell us?

I don't think I'm somehow obligated to try to marshal the resources of my university in order to test someone else's idea of "looks like." Doing the work to make a claim credible and testable is the responsibility of the person making the claim.

If I claim any expertise in material culture, it's in the area of lithics. I cannot tell you how many times someone has showed me some rock that most certainly was not modified by humans in any way and insisted that it was. If I spent my career feeling obligated to "test" every rock that someone thought "looked like" something, I would get nothing else done.

David L Ulrich
11/17/2015 11:03:38 am

should have added the comment "this is the world I spend 35 years in". Very Very pragmatic and there was very little of room for "I think...", as contrary to "I know...."

Reply
David L Ulrich
11/17/2015 02:53:16 pm

give him a call or note ----

https://www.facebook.com/

Chris Dunn Thanks for the link. I don't think his area of interest and expertise includes my own. However, if he invited me, I would certainly consider participating.

https://www.facebook.com/chris.dunn.5817?fref=hovercard

Reply
Andy White
11/19/2015 05:48:28 am

Thanks for the tip - I presume this in relation to my class next Fall?

Reply
David L Ulrich
11/19/2015 12:58:43 pm

it is.....

Reply
Moses Horowitz
5/1/2018 05:37:25 am

Regarding the addendum picture of the copper "starfish" - I'd be pleased as punch to have found a chunk of copper that size in the wild, no matter its origins. But, manufactured? Given the effort and resources required to smelt that amount of copper, it seems highly strange to me that such a highly useful and prized substance would remain unused. Furthermore, as someone who has done a bit of amateur metalwork, I've always followed the practice taught to me of pouring my molten metal into moulds of regular size - I use a cupcake pan! - for easier storage and measurement. I doubt the ancients had any cupcake pans on hand, but certainly they would have employed a similar method of casting. This specimen, if man-made, is highly inconvenient for future use.

Reply
Gregg Nelson
4/8/2019 03:44:18 am

Go back to Larry Furo's comment, this is a weathered piece of float copper.

Reply
Dick de Grasse, Islesboro, Maine link
8/17/2019 08:12:06 am

I'm an ocean sailor and follower of Gavin Menzies. I believe he's right about the Minoans and copper mining on Isle Royal about 2000 BC. I done lots of homework on how they navigated back and forth across the Atlantic to and from Crete during the Bronze Age.

Reply



Leave a Reply.


    All views expressed in my blog posts are my own. The views of those that comment are their own. That's how it works.

    I reserve the right to take down comments that I deem to be defamatory or harassing. 

    Andy White

    Follow me on Twitter: @Andrew_A_White

    Email me: andy.white.zpm@gmail.com

    Enter your email address:

    Delivered by FeedBurner


    Picture

    Sick of the woo?  Want to help keep honest and open dialogue about pseudo-archaeology on the internet? Please consider contributing to Woo War Two.
    Picture

    Follow updates on posts related to giants on the Modern Mythology of Giants page on Facebook.

    Archives

    January 2023
    January 2022
    November 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    March 2021
    June 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    April 2017
    March 2017
    February 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    October 2016
    September 2016
    August 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    May 2016
    April 2016
    March 2016
    February 2016
    January 2016
    December 2015
    November 2015
    October 2015
    September 2015
    August 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    December 2014
    November 2014
    September 2014
    August 2014
    June 2014
    May 2014
    April 2014
    March 2014

    Categories

    All
    3D Models
    AAA
    Adena
    Afrocentrism
    Agent Based Modeling
    Agent-based Modeling
    Aircraft
    Alabama
    Aliens
    Ancient Artifact Preservation Society
    Androgynous Fish Gods
    ANTH 227
    ANTH 291
    ANTH 322
    Anthropology History
    Anunnaki
    Appalachia
    Archaeology
    Ardipithecus
    Art
    Atlantis
    Australia
    Australopithecines
    Aviation History
    Bigfoot
    Birds
    Boas
    Book Of Mormon
    Broad River Archaeological Field School
    Bronze Age
    Caribou
    Carolina Bays
    Ceramics
    China
    Clovis
    Complexity
    Copper Culture
    Cotton Mather
    COVID-19
    Creationism
    Croatia
    Crow
    Demography
    Denisovans
    Diffusionism
    DINAA
    Dinosaurs
    Dirt Dance Floor
    Double Rows Of Teeth
    Dragonflies
    Early Archaic
    Early Woodland
    Earthworks
    Eastern Woodlands
    Eastern Woodlands Household Archaeology Data Project
    Education
    Egypt
    Europe
    Evolution
    Ewhadp
    Fake Hercules Swords
    Fetal Head Molding
    Field School
    Film
    Florida
    Forbidden Archaeology
    Forbidden History
    Four Field Anthropology
    Four-field Anthropology
    France
    Genetics
    Genus Homo
    Geology
    Geometry
    Geophysics
    Georgia
    Giants
    Giants Of Olden Times
    Gigantism
    Gigantopithecus
    Graham Hancock
    Grand Valley State
    Great Lakes
    Hollow Earth
    Homo Erectus
    Hunter Gatherers
    Hunter-gatherers
    Illinois
    India
    Indiana
    Indonesia
    Iowa
    Iraq
    Israel
    Jim Vieira
    Jobs
    Kensington Rune Stone
    Kentucky
    Kirk Project
    Late Archaic
    Lemuria
    Lithic Raw Materials
    Lithics
    Lizard Man
    Lomekwi
    Lost Continents
    Mack
    Mammoths
    Mastodons
    Maya
    Megafauna
    Megaliths
    Mesolithic
    Michigan
    Middle Archaic
    Middle Pleistocene
    Middle Woodland
    Midwest
    Minnesota
    Mississippi
    Mississippian
    Missouri
    Modeling
    Morphometric
    Mound Builder Myth
    Mu
    Music
    Nazis
    Neandertals
    Near East
    Nephilim
    Nevada
    New Mexico
    Newspapers
    New York
    North Carolina
    Oahspe
    Oak Island
    Obstetrics
    Ohio
    Ohio Valley
    Oldowan
    Olmec
    Open Data
    Paleoindian
    Paleolithic
    Pilumgate
    Pleistocene
    Pliocene
    Pre Clovis
    Pre-Clovis
    Prehistoric Families
    Pseudo Science
    Pseudo-science
    Radiocarbon
    Reality Check
    Rome
    Russia
    SAA
    Sardinia
    SCIAA
    Science
    Scientific Racism
    Sculpture
    SEAC
    Search For The Lost Giants
    Sexual Dimorphism
    Sitchin
    Social Complexity
    Social Networks
    Solutrean Hypothesis
    South Africa
    South America
    South Carolina
    Southeast
    Stone Holes
    Subsistence
    Swordgate
    Teaching
    Technology
    Teeth
    Television
    Tennessee
    Texas
    Topper
    Travel
    Travel Diaries
    Vaccines
    Washington
    Whatzit
    White Supremacists
    Wisconsin
    Woo War Two
    World War I
    World War II
    Writing
    Younger Dryas

    RSS Feed

    Picture
Proudly powered by Weebly