A View of Swordgate (and More) from Nova Scotia

1/30/2016

One of the things that's made #Swordgate fun is the online interactions I've had with people who are interested in the swords in particular, pseudo-archaeology in general, ancient Rome, the history/prehistory of Nova Scotia, The Curse of Oak Island television program, and any and all combinations of those things. Science is a human endeavor. In this case, the human component has been just as rewarding to me as making progress in cracking the problem.

I've really enjoyed interacting with Nova Scotians who have a genuine interest in the cultural heritage of their province. I've gotten a lot of encouragment from them, and that has helped to keep me going. The people who send me messages, write me emails, and comment on this blog tell me that the issues involved in Swordgate matter to them on several levels. They are interested and engaged, and the story matters to them.

I wanted to pass along this video by a Nova Scotian giving his point of view of what's been going on. If you're wondering what people on the local and regional level think of all this, his words will provide you with a good data point. It's not just an academic issue of whether the sword (or any of the other pieces of "evidence" being put forward) is authentic or not. It's about more than that. Watch the video if you've got 15 minutes. (Fair warning: there's a little bit of language -- nothing worse than what your kids have probably already heard if they've graduated the fourth grade).

Jonathan Feinstein

1/30/2016 07:10:47 am

My thanks to our friend ghettohillbilly for the video. Well-spoken.

Btw, I almost got paranoid last evening when this site suddenly disappeared along with Jason's and that of the Oak Island Compendium. Had to wonder if it was just a coincidence and started writing a blog entry of my own to see if it too would suddenly disappear and then about halfway through what I was writing all three sites came back so I guess they had not been bitten by a rabid CueCat or something... huh... unless we have to wait until the next full moon to know for sure ;-)

Jason Colavito link

1/30/2016 07:49:48 am

Andy and I both use Weebly to host our sites, and Weebly was having technical difficulties for several hours yesterday. It wasn't a conspiracy ... that I know of!

Jonathan Feinstein

1/30/2016 07:55:04 am

Aha! I could see that OI Compendium used the same service, but was not sure of yours. I guess my Word Press site would have stayed up then. Just as well.

Rose McDonald

1/30/2016 09:02:01 am

Jason, I think that might be why I was having trouble with your blog post about Wolter's academic credentials.

Peter Geuzen

1/30/2016 09:30:44 am

Could it be....silly drama music isn't needed to make a real video?
Could it be....flashy graphics aren't needed to make a real video?
Could it be....foreign accent narrators aren't needed to make a real video?
Could it be....lies are not science, and the BS Meter sees the truth?
Could it be....locals rule and JHP is the fool?

Rose McDonald

1/30/2016 11:40:32 am

Liked what he had to say, but he almost lost me with the crazy Americans comment. Honestly, though, I can't find fault with his opinions. A lot of the off the wall theories do come from Americans. But, they aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree. I actually sympathize with him. No one in their right mind would be happy with having the neighbors come in and dig up their backyard then drag over a bunch of crazies with theories that trash them, their city, country, government and history to justify it. My apologies the the "hillbilly"
Maybe this is heresy, but I hold the Laginas largely responsible for the current level of hysteria about the non-existent treasures of Oak Island. Marty Lagina has a degree in engineering; is it conceivable that he wouldn't have looked at the geology of an island he was going to buy? Is it possible he wouldn't know that if you dig a hole in a piece of land that's only 30 plus feet above sea level, at its highest elevation, it's going to fill with water? Did he really make his millions being that kind of felony stupid? Instead, when approached by Prometheus, or vice versa, he realized he could get help footing the bill for his brother's fantasy, get tons of publicity and be the loving younger brother....I think I'm gonna throw up.
Rick Lagina is playing his role as the "dreamer" to the hilt and then some. I don't buy the wide-eyed wonder performance. Of all the smoke and mirrors people who've shown up on Oak Island, he's the least credible. He's indulging his childhood fantasy... on his brother's dime. He starts one avenue of exploration, digging another hole, then jumps to something else; trying to find the box drains and non-existent flood tunnels, sending another diver down 10X, dumping dye down 10X, and ignoring the thoroughly researched 1995 study of the island by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution that states categorically, there are no booby trap flood tunnels. (Thanks to Andy White and Richard E. Joltes.for the links)
When Rick actually found something, wood cribbing from a possible tunnel excavated by an earlier treasure hunter, he walked away from it and started on something else. ???
Then we have Prometheus Entertainment and the History Channel. I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but an awful lot of the theorists who've made their way to the island are in Prometheus' stable of over the edge experts. So far the only fringer they haven't had on the island is Georgio Tsoulakos of Ancient Aliens notoriety. But, we can't forget the sword meister and his ancient roman gladius and the inscribed rock that he just happened to walk straight to when he got to the island. He had an absolute catfit when the Laginas didn't want to jump right on the tube with his sword theory, which changed at least four times. I think a lot of the resistance to JHP (he who shall not be named) aside from everything about him, is that the brothers realized early on that he was trying to horn in on their gold mine.
IMHO, I've come to the realization that as one of the early true believers, I am now completely disillusioned with the whole mess. It is an enormous hoax and the sooner people realize that the faster this scam will disappear and take the crazy as a bed louse theorists with it
.

Jonathan Feinstein

1/30/2016 12:08:57 pm

In Nova Scotia, I'm sure it looks like most of the people behaving the way he described are Americans. Down here in SE Massachusetts we sometimes think to the same sort as big city folks. They come in from Boston or New York or wherever with the attitude that they're going to show us yokels how to do things the right way. The ones who stay in the area generally grow up, though there are a few exceptions.

Peter Geuzen

1/30/2016 12:46:14 pm

Agreed, both the style of the show and the style of the fringers including JHP, have really hurt, maybe killed, the mystery and intrigue that might have once existed. I see the Block House guys trying to keep it real and alive however, so kudos to them. I don’t know what to make of the Laginas at this point. Ten years on the island, three years on TV, tons of money down the proverbial pit, and nothing to show for it. I assume they were genuine and keen at the start but now yes there has to be a certain degree of acting going on to not look jaded. The show will keep going however, despite the criticism. The ratings are there so the advertisers will be there so the business goes on. With the current season ending next week, and likely still not showing or proving anything, the popular interest will drop off for the spring and summer. How JHP keeps his hype going and his followers from disappearing will be interesting but almost guaranteed it will become more bizarre and crazy than ever. What`s going to come next and then next etc; the fake 90 foot stone, the fake Roman ship wreck, the fake Spear of Destiny, the fake Ark of the Covenant, the fake Tomb of Jesus.....??? Things will get even weirder than they currently are I think.

Andy White

1/30/2016 06:10:20 pm

I also harbored some hopes for "The Curse of Oak Island' when it began. I didn't know much about all the legends, etc., but I had heard of the "money pit." I liked the angle of two brothers following their passion and trying to figure out a puzzle once and for all. I liked the historical aspects to the story and the promise that they were going to use sweat, technology, and logic to figure things out. In one of the first couple episodes, however, someone found a tiny mammal bone while screening some dirt and the show played the "is it human?" card for way too hard and long. It very obviously was not. It was then I knew that this was probably going to be just another attempt to pose questions accompanied by dramatic music and nice photography but not any really possibility of answers.

Cleo

1/30/2016 02:13:18 pm

A very good multi episode show with high ratings could have been made by filming actual information seekers doing relevant research and verifying claims into the countless myths about OI. I'm thinking here of the type of production like the more critical History Hunters, aired on PBS, who, at the very least, show us how they arrive skillfully to their conclusions. The possibility of looking at something like this and coming to the conclusion it is likely not true is something that I honestly believe doesn't serve a lot of economic interests.
You just have to listen to the claims made in the opening snippet of the show to understand that it's all resting on baseless information that can actually be verified. How much research can you claim to have done and still air that bit of folklore? Isn't it willful deception? There' s no reason to assume a bunch of teenagers rowed their way to a deserted island when a properly done genealogy can show you that the boys in question were much older men in 1795, that the Island was lived on and that there had been various industry there for awhile. The box drain, coconut fibered flood tunnel hogwash has long ago been shown to be consistent with a salt works for the fish packing industry, likely hidden there at a time when salt was heavily taxed. No, instead we hear of Roman gladiators' magic navigational aids and Christopher Columbus' smuggling of the Ark of the covenant onto a Island with many treasures on it (new and improved theory that might make you wonder which one might be dug up next) as if those were reasonable theories that reasonable men would propose.

One of the most cherished freedoms out there seems to be the freedom to deceive. Shrewd men have made good lives for themselves by defending that freedom.

Eric

1/30/2016 05:25:45 pm

The thing is, the "History" Channel and its' parent company long ago decided that there is more profit in fringe history and cheap, dumb programming. The Discovery Channel promised to change from programming for dummies one year ago, but that just means the "History" Channel will double down on the stupidity to bring in those viewers too. Lets face it, American cable TV jumped the shark long ago on even attempting to produce educational programming. PBS isn't going to take up the slack, either. They aren't going to spend the money on that-they are pushing costume dramas like "Downton Abbey", buying the rights to BBC programming is cheaper than producing your own and reaches larger audiences.

The future of historical documentaries is going to be online, not on cable-its dying. The outstanding stuff the BBC still puts out online is watchable, precisely because it isn't American. They assume their audience has more education whereas US programming is literally pitched to a middle school level.

Ryan

1/30/2016 11:45:26 pm

Pbs won't be picking up the slack because they can't. We've cut their funding so much in the last two decades that their original output is severely restricted.

Downton is a co-production of Masterpiece, a production from a Pbs station in Boston, and Carnival films, a British tv production company. It airs on itv, which is a privately owned network, over there.

So Downton is an example of a pbs original of sorts. But I think the bulk of the funding, and thus the profits, live with the brits. And the BBC is cutting back on selling to Pbs. They have their own US wing now. So for "educational" content we get Nova, Ken Burns (blech), reheated British documentaries, and a handful of regionally produced series on absurdly specific subjects. Like the Irish immigrant experience, world music, or a specific baseball player no-one remembers.

Hell they couldn't even keep Sesame Street going. And the heavy restrictions they're under largely prevent them from properly exploiting successful properties like Downton. So even when they have a hand in making something high profile and original it can't alleviate their funding problems. It's sad and frustrating.

Peter Geuzen

1/30/2016 04:56:56 pm

Could it be....time for Swordgate: the Poster V4 ?

http://imgur.com/Jb5MFS4

Updated from Version 3 to Version 4

Added an abstract at the top of the page
Added occurrence date, inclusion # and Group indicator annotation
Added blade similarity indicator arrows and annotation for Type F (thanks to ‘sword skeptic’ for noticing/reminding)
Added indicator lines and annotation re similar clean blade versions for possible Group Type
Added indicator lines and annotation for Pugio provisional status
Added enlarged hilt comparison between Nova Scotia and Andy’s collection
Several minor formatting changes

The original now has defined poster size to exactly 24 X 36 inches, however the imgur version is auto compressed by the app to smaller size. If anyone wants an original in either jpeg (3mb) or bmp (25mb) we could probably get it to you if Andy thinks it’s OK and could act as an email intermediary.

Andy White

1/30/2016 06:04:24 pm

Nice. I'll give it its own post tomorrow.

One thing I noticed: I wouldn't characterize the Design Toscano sword as having "good casting detail." It's the poorest of the three I can look at firsthand, for sure.

Peter Geuzen

1/30/2016 06:32:38 pm

Fixed. Old link deleted. Here's the fixed version:

https://imgur.com/Z4zbwm9

We could in theory create a more formal scale for casting detail.

Andrew White

1/30/2016 06:44:06 pm

Any ideas on how to do that? There could be a way to somehow quantify sharpness of edges or something like that. One thing the 3D models will let me do is extract cross-sections from any part of the model. So maybe a cross-section across the guard of the most detailed sword has vertical edges and sharp corners, while a cross-section across one of the "later" versions has everything rounded off. Legos vs. a knobby pickle.

Peter Geuzen

1/30/2016 08:36:13 pm

"There could be a way to somehow quantify sharpness of edges or something like that"

I recall reading a paper on something similar, applied to paintings and differentiating fakes from authentic based on radius of curvature measurements; full of algorithms and so on. I was thinking maybe something simpler however given we are at a population of only 12 with only 3 available for detailed study. Instead of 3 ordinals, poor/fair/good (leaving the door open for higher levels, including the mothership if she exists), maybe go to a simple scale out of 10, with best estimates based on pictures. If and when the population grows, take another shot at improving the scaling, depending on how many might become directly available. I see the Florida eBay timed out and has been relisted at the same price. Maybe if it times out again there will be a price drop.

Jonathan Feinstein

1/31/2016 03:53:28 am

If we had the original we could measure percentage of deformation, I suppose, using key features, such as Hercules' nose and details of the lion skin and what not.

We don't have that, however, leaving us to guess. Since the CA sword seems to be the best featured one (based on the 3D scans you posted, Andy), we could assume it is a first generation copy. With that as an assumption, we could possibly project backward to the original, if your 3D imaging software allows for editing.

The first step would be to project original size - the 2% number you estimated is a good start - and then sharpen details carefully by comparing differences in the other two swords. Of course that's a lot of work rumor has it that you do have a day job.

It also relies on the assumption that the CA sword is a 1st Generation copy, but I do not think that is a great stretch.

Andy White

1/31/2016 07:46:41 am

The new poster is up: http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/swordgate-poster-version-4

Rory MacNeil

1/30/2016 06:20:03 pm

Oh wow is this fella ever one of the boys from home. As a Nova Scotian I can confidently say this fella speaks on behalf of my feelings. Well said from one hillbilly to another.

Andy White

1/30/2016 06:22:10 pm

I thought you would like it. For a second this morning as I was still waking up I wondered if I was confused and this was actually you.

Anon

1/31/2016 03:35:21 am

One thing I'd urge you guys against, not strictly here but anywhere, is shying away from using J. Hutton Pulitzer's name in print when you're referring to him, And that isn't necessarily aimed at the author of the YouTube video Andy shared with us, either...

It's just that -- generally speaking -- we ought not let free speech be threatened by frivolous and unjust litigation. I know free speech doesn't exist everywhere like it does in the U.S., and things can get particularly hairy in some of those European countries when it comes to libel and slander (the U.K. being one example).

But Pulitzer lives in the U.S. and at the very least, those of us who live here as well shouldn't allow his threats to dictate what we can and can't say in public. He chose many public venues to promote his claims; he made that choice.

And let's not forget how much he likes to SEO-jaculate over every nook and cranny of the Web and social media. He wants to have his cake and eat it, too. I strongly believe his public image was the REAL reason he changed his name a decade ago, despite what he says about someone stalking him. I think he just wanted to hit the reset button after the CueCat fiasco, because potential financiers or venture capitalists wouldn't go near his old name.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. I'm certainly not saying the guy should be harassed, threatened or intimidated. I'm just saying that in the context of critiquing his claims -- and in a general sense -- we shouldn't let ourselves get in the habit of referring to him as anything else but his real name.

Peter Geuzen

1/31/2016 06:25:59 am

It’s too long to type, plus I don’t think he deserves to have his fake name considered as his real name because it’s a vain and egotistical choice for a fake name, done on purpose to try to fool people who are dumb enough to fall for it, which is arguably part of his plan. Plus JHP sounds/reads like ‘jip’, which I think fits perfectly.

If you really want to go with his real real name, Jovan Philyaw, he can really freak out.

Brother Bob

2/2/2016 09:26:52 am

Topman looking out for his local area.
BTW your bullshit meter needle landed here in the UK and set off our bullshit meters too.
JHP the coca-cola kid is a true fraud, I've contacted him several times but to no avail hoping to set him off on one but I've failed as he hasn't responded - I keep hoping.

Good work mate

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A View of Swordgate (and More) from Nova Scotia

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