A New Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt Comparison of the Hercules-Hilted Swords

1/14/2016

Peter Geuzen has updated his previous image showing the hilts of the four known brass/bronze swords (plus the Design Toscano sword) to include two additional swords that surfaced yesterday. So now that's six copper alloy sword that we know about (presuming that the France sword is really bronze alloy and not just painted with fake patina).

No, they're not plastic, or "stone painted bronze," or Photoshopped . . . these are real items that appear to be more-or-less identical to the alleged "Roman sword" from Nova Scotia. The "lost Roman legion" explanation has a really difficult time dealing with the fact that more and more of these things keep showing up. My 19th century tourist souvenir hypothesis, however, accounts for all the facts (and all the swords) that we currently have in front of us. My hypothesis has no trouble dealing with the appearance of additional swords, and, actually the more swords the better! "Roman swords" seem to be a growth industry these days!

The appearance of more and more swords is not so good for the alternative hypothesis, however.

Here is a link to Geuzen's image.

View post on imgur.com

My $50 reward stands: determine the origin of the bronze/brass swords, reap the glory.

21 Comments

James Lawrence

1/14/2016 01:05:58 pm

$50 may not be Powerball size...but I'll take it. Especially when $50 U.S. is like a bazillion dollars Canadian right now.

Neil

1/14/2016 01:57:24 pm

...how does the Design Toscana (a present-day vendor of...um...'cheesy' 'works of art' & reproductions) item fit with "19th Century Souvenir" hypothesis..?

Andy White

1/14/2016 02:04:48 pm

I think the DT swords (currently being produced in cast iron) are a second generation, based on copying one of an earlier generation of copper alloy souvenirs. That's a hypothesis, anyway.

Peter Geuzen

1/14/2016 06:07:13 pm

Confirmed in the media that the alleged Oak Island sword would never have been covered by protective tresure legislation when in was supposedly found in the 1940s. JHPs ranting of the fearful fisherman also worried about fishing regulations has also been proven to be bunk because there were no regs in place for scallop fishing at the time - thanks to James Lawrence for confirming this as well as previously confirming the treasure regs not applying.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1333458-oak-island-sword-gets-province%E2%80%99s-attention
http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/01/14/province-interested-in-supposed-roman-sword-on-oak-island.html

Read all the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/hutton-pulitzer/what-it-takes-to-verify-artifacts-and-history-and-how-it-can-kick-a-mans-butt-wh/443055059231156#

Andy White

1/14/2016 06:16:33 pm

It doesn't appear that I have access to that Facebook page. Another shocking development!

James Lawrence

1/14/2016 06:32:19 pm

My favourite line from JHP on that string was "Now, WHY do I happen to know these things and expert comment on them? I wrote the domestic and international law text and education book on treasure law. State by state, country by country."

Wow - state by state and country by country...yet he posts a link to U.S. Federal scalloping laws to 'school me' on what applies to Nova Scotian (i.e. Canadian) waters.

Trevor Kenchington

1/14/2016 06:46:01 pm

The "sword" that isn't clearly also isn't Roman and very probably hasn't been under salt water for long enough to get more than damp. I'm very glad to see so many people taking the time to expose the ludicrous claims for what they are.

However, before anyone claims to have yet another reason to dismiss fanciful nonsense:

Nova Scotia's Special Places Protection Act came into effect in the mid-1980s. It did not apply when we excavated a wreck in 1981-83 but did (or was purported to) when I carried out my next archaeological fieldwork in about 1987-89 -- "purported" because it has always been doubtful whether Nova Scotian legislation (as distinct from Canadian federal law) applies beyond the tidemark. Still, there is a long history of other legislation concerning items legally deemed "wreck", which in this part of the world are still subject to the provisions of the Canada Shipping Act. A fisherman who found something valuable should have reported it to the Receiver of Wreck and, if he chose not to, had good reason to keep quiet. Indeed, by the 1970s the federal government had an Underwater Archaeology Unit and was taking a more active interest in the archaeological potential on the seabed. One unfortunate Newfoundland SCUBA diver had the very, very rare privilege of finding a mariner's astrolabe. Word got out and, one night, two large police officers showed up at his house, demanding that he hand it over.

Pulitzer's nonsense is not more nonsensical because he has a half-understood tale of why somebody chose not to announce the find of a sword-like object.

(Incidentally: the 1981-83 excavation mentioned above gave rise to the "1754" date which Pulitzer has declared is not the date of his "Roman" wreck. "My" wreck probably wasn't lost in '54, despite what the Nova Scotia Museum is likely to tell you, but it was certainly built within 100 years of the mid-18th Century. I'm not quite incompetent enough to confuse circa 100AD mortice-and-tenon Mediterranean ship construction with the circa 1750 New England plank-on-frame version!)

Trevor Kenchington

1/14/2016 06:58:12 pm

Missed one sentence in that last post: I have no reason to think that Pulitzer's claimed wreck is the same one that we excavated near 35 years ago. It's just odd that he should have quoted the date that is sometimes attached to "my" site.

Jonathan Feinstein

1/15/2016 04:19:55 am

Judging strictly by photos can be misleading, but it looks to me as though the known swords fall into at least two different families of castings as evidenced by the way the lion skin is wrapped around the figure's waist. on some, like the Nova Scotia and Florida swords, the line formed by the lion skin forms a sort of rounded "V" shape, whereas in the California, French (and possibly Spanish) swords the skin forms a flat, nearly straight line along his waist for a short way. It is a minor detail, but a telling one in that at least some of these are copies. Yes, we knew that the Design Toscano Swords are copies, even the manufacturer says that, but I meant that whatever the original turns out to have been, it has been copied more than once.

More concerning to me, though, is the nature of the figure on the hilt. This is not a common pose for Hercules. Most ancient pieces I could find have him holding his club in only one hand or else resting it on the ground or his shoulder. It is almost as though one of his divine attributes to be depicted was the strength to use it single handedly. Most double-handed poses I can find seem to be representations from the Renaissance (but as this is not my field of expertise, I may not have sufficient samples to judge that by).

I cannot help but suspect that the Hercules figure here might not have originated as a sword hilt, but instead was a bit of vertical ornamentation on something else (a piece of furniture, perhaps?). The guesses of a19th Century origin of these swords sound reasonable to me since that was a period in which all sorts of odd bits of Greco-Roman art was incorporated into previously unrelated objects.
Whether my guesses turn out to be right or wrong, though, I do hope someone finds where these swords came from. It seems odd we should be finding so many of them and yet not have any clear idea of their origin.

One more thing... I was unaware that the Romans made any gladii (regardless of whether they were intended to be fought with or not) out of bronze or any copper alloy. I had learned they were mostly either iron or low carbon steel. I could understand if someone chose to make a special series of votive objects with cast-on bronze hilts, but I would have thought they would use iron/steel blades. It is not like they were in short supply, every soldier had one (I think) and iron was certainly less expensive than bronze.

FTR, however, sometime in an earlier comment or post, someone wondered at how dull these blades are. If they are as young as we all seem to think, then that also argues they were merely made as decorative objects recently, but if they are old... well, my experience with Roman period weaponry is slim at best, but I have studied Middle Eastern Bronze Age weapons, and many of them no longer have much of an edge either. Many are mostly blade-shaped masses of verdigris corrosion perhaps with some of the original metal still inside. The basic shape of the blade remains, but the this, sharp edges, corroded off long ago.

James Lawrence

1/15/2016 06:23:15 am

Just a couple of things related to swordgate you may find interesting:

Firstly, I emailed a woman in Naples (Jeannette Vlietstra of http://pompeiitours.nl/en/ ) who specializes in (paid) guided tours of Naples, Pompeii and Herculaneum points of interest (including the Naples National Museum). It was reasonable to assume that someone who provides such tours would have a high probability of seeing this sword in Naples at some point (it is after all fairly distinct). I sent pic's and a brief background that such a sword was found in Nova Scotia and claims were made a similar one resided in Naples.

Her response (this morning) was: "Hi James, i've never seen this sword before. It is certainly NOT exposed in the archeological museum of Naples, in this moment. Even during the special exhibition about the gladiators with swords and shields, I don't remember I've seen this special sword with the little man ( Hercules?) on the top. I'm sorry I can't help u further.
Goodluck"

Second, I found the following site online:
https://archive.org/details/illustratedguide00museiala
There are a number of (old) illustrated guides here for the National Museum in Naples, where you can flip through annual catalogues of the museum contents and images. Thus far, I have been unable to locate any picture or inventory reference to such a sword - but I have not gone through all yet...so encourage others to do so if you wish and see what (if anything) you may come up with.I believe Pompeii was discovered in late 18th century, so I would think any sword found there (and residing in Naples museum) should be on the inventory list. In fact it seems the museum specialized more so in painting and stone/bronze statues - with only a couple of minor gladiator items (helmets) to be found. No swords or edged weapons to speak of.

Michael

1/15/2016 08:52:56 am

Cool!! Thank you for sharing. I downloaded the PDF and I went through it for 45 minutes, but no luck in finding it.

Mike Jones

1/15/2016 07:22:19 am

In looking at the pictures, it is OBVIOUS that the shiny knees on the "Oak Island" sword are bare brass, not gold. As Andy and others have pointed out, the highest relief parts of a figure get more contact with your hand and the patina is "polished" off by friction. If the figure had been gold plated, the lower parts and crevasses would retain the plating, not the higher parts. Also, gold doesn't tarnish. That's the whole point of gold plating. The fact the Treasure Commander cannot tell gold from brass is telling and, in my opinion, HILARIOUS!

ghettohillbilly1

1/16/2016 07:58:17 am

agreed, he also doesnt realize frank magazine is more of a tabloid, and them hanging up on him multple times is the icing on the cake Hutton IS the curse of hoax island

Benjamin

1/15/2016 10:36:19 am

I know the origin of the sword, but I doubt I can prove it sufficiently to earn your $50.

I did UNB's study abroad to Pompeii and Herculaneum in 2005. I bought that exact sword at a mobile gift shop for 50euros outside old Pompeii.

Unfortunately, I don't have any photographs of buying the sword nor can I pose with it right now (it's stored at my family's in Halifax while I'm in Fredericton), but I do have a 2008 photo of the sword hanging in the background on my college bedroom wall. I am sending it to your e-mail promptly.

Cheers!
Benjamin

Peter Geuzen

1/15/2016 11:24:19 am

A new Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt Comparison could be on the way.

You could also post the pic to http://imgur.com/ and then put the link in another post. No account needed, just upload and get the link.

ghettohillbilly1

1/16/2016 04:37:48 am

you sure its still there, maybe its your sword on the show lol

Mike

1/17/2016 09:01:46 am

Anyone else on the trip buy the same sword?

Andy White

1/17/2016 09:05:02 am

Just FYI for anyone reading this that doesn't know: a photo of Benjamin's sword is in this post:

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/hercules-hilted-swords-for-sale-in-italy-two-data-points

Hopefully we can get a better image at some point.

ghettohillbilly1

1/17/2016 02:18:17 pm

have you considered letting the chronicle herald know you have the same sword? I'm sure they'd love to do an interview and/or take some pics

Big Fred

1/15/2016 06:02:48 pm

Does anyone have a discount coupon code for this Ancient Sculpture Gallery place? $59.00 seems a bit steep. (But I don't want to be the last person to own one of these.)
https://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/gladiator-sword-from-pompeii-museum-replica.html

Killbuck

1/18/2016 08:54:12 am

Design Toscano has them on sale right now for 19 bucks. There's your discount.

That website only suggests it's like one from Pompeii, but does not specify it. The ancientsculpturegalley.com page specifically states the original in in the naples Museum:

"Gladiator Sword from Pompeii. Foundry cast iron replica from the Naples Museum. Paying homage to the craftsmanship and technique of metalsmiths in the Roman Empire, our exclusive museum replica is a rough iron foundry casting like those found in Pompeii. This remarkably heavyweight replica boasts characteristic details, and makes a handsome gift for yourself or anyone who enjoys Roman history or artifacts."

It's a lot of cut and paste from the DT site, but makes a specific attribution to an original, which according to the website of that museum, no such sword is cataloged.

A New Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt-to-Hilt Comparison of the Hercules-Hilted Swords

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