Andy White Anthropology
  • Home
  • Research Interests
    • Complexity Science
    • Prehistoric Social Networks
    • Eastern Woodlands Prehistory
    • Ancient Giants
  • Blog
  • Work in Progress
    • The Kirk Project >
      • Kirk 3D Models list
      • Kirk 3D Models embedded
      • Kirk 2D images >
        • Indiana
        • Kentucky
        • Michigan
        • Ontario
      • Kirk Project Datasets
    • Computational Modeling >
      • FN3D_V3
    • Radiocarbon Compilation
    • Fake Hercules Swords
    • Wild Carolina >
      • Plants >
        • Mosses
        • Ferns
        • Conifers
        • Flowering Plants >
          • Grasses
          • Trees
          • Other Flowering Plants
      • Animals >
        • Birds
        • Mammals
        • Crustaceans
        • Insects
        • Arachnids
        • Millipedes and Centipedes
        • Reptiles and Amphibians
      • Fungi
  • Annotated Publications
    • Journal Articles
    • Technical Reports
    • Doctoral Dissertation
  • Bibliography
  • Data

A Hilt-to-Hilt Comparison of the Known Swords

1/6/2016

19 Comments

 
One of the readers of my blog (Peter Geuzen) put together a composite image comparing the hilts of the various "known" swords that are now entangled in #Swordgate.
View post on imgur.com
Geuzen's comparison makes the similarities and differences pretty obvious: it's the same figure (i.e., from the same mold or copied from one another) but there are differences in the amount of detail that is present. The California sword easily preserves more detail than any of the others: you can clearly see the individual digits of the paws of the lion skin that Hercules is wearing, for example, as well as lines in his beard and the grain in his club. 

This begs an important question, of course . . . how does a supposed "copy" (the California sword) contain more detail than the supposed authentic swords (the Nova Scotia and Florida swords)? As I have mentioned several times (e.g., here), this problem could potentially be resolved if anyone could produce an original, authentic Roman sword with MORE detail than the California sword.  So far, however, the assertions that such a sword exists have not been accompanied by any actual evidence. 

Are you holding your breath waiting for that evidence of an authentic, museum-curated Roman Hercules-hilted sword to materialize?  I'm not.

And before we go CC'ing Steve and threatening me with legal action for violating copyright, I would point out that this page only contains a referring link to an image posted independently on imgur. I did not create that image and that image is not contained on this blog. Further, the use of a portion of the image of the Nova Scotia sword in a composite image falls under Fair Use as defined by 17 U.S.C. § 107:

"17 U.S.C. § 107

​
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
  1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
  2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
  3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
  4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors."
19 Comments
nali
1/6/2016 09:24:28 am

Don't forget it's metal casting, and the results are not always perfect.
I don't think they cast 1000s of swords, so each one may be unique.
The result is that even with a perfect pattern, the details may vary when you make the mold with "green sand".
One sword may have many details, while the next one not so much, which is not really a problem seeing the low price they cost.

A lot of information about the casting process here :
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

Reply
Andy White
1/6/2016 09:27:51 am

But the argument that's being made by the advocates of the "Roman sword" is that the Nova Scotia sword is a priceless Roman original while the California sword is a cheap, modern reproduction. I agree that there will be some natural variation in casts made from the same mold, and I think we're seeing that here (i.e., all of these brass/bronze swords are "modern").

Reply
nali
1/6/2016 09:48:44 am

Right ...
So for me the California sword is an original,because it seems to have more details.
But the Florida one is more damaged, which prooves it's the oldest one :)

Andy White
1/6/2016 09:56:09 am

That would be assuming that the relationship between age and the amount of "damage" is simple and positive, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think that: (1) all these brass/bronze swords were made at about the same time (recently); (2) there was probably some initial variation in "quality" as copies were made; (3) the swords probably experienced different "use-lives," with some being handled and banged around a lot and others not so much.

There may even be notable variations in the currently-produced Design Toscano swords, but I have no desire to own more than one.

nali
1/6/2016 10:11:18 am

I agree with you. Just trying to find a stupid explanation for fun :)

Reply
Andy White
1/6/2016 10:12:03 am

There's no fun allowed in #Swordgate.

Reply
Bob Jase
1/7/2016 08:55:42 am

That must be the third rule.

Peter Geuzen
1/6/2016 10:49:20 am

The amount of verdigris I assume also blurs some detail, depending on how thick it is encrusted and comparatively how much may have worn off after being formed. Applied verdigris patina is pretty common. Quality control for reproductions for the tourist or souvenir trade would not need to be too high, so variable exposure times and variable mixes of chemicals in the patina vats would explain some of the differences as well.

Reply
sword skeptic
1/6/2016 10:55:41 am

I know you are having fun, but it is worth reiterating Andy's point--molds deteriorate over time resulting in reduced quality products. Molds of originals can fail to capture details found on originals. Molds of molds create even more deviation from originals.

Damage on swords (or anything) can be misleading. A sword from the English Civil War period could be in pristine condition while a sword from the American Civil War could be in excavated condition (a lump of sword-shaped rust), but one is obviously older than the other.

Thank you to Peter Geuzen for the comparative photos. I am curious about the differences in the blades, too. I believe one of them had a blade with fullers (grooves). Any chance of a comparison of the blades?

Reply
Andy White
1/6/2016 11:11:29 am

The California sword has fullers, at least in the portion of the blade nearest the hilt. I'll be interested to see what the blade looks like on that one, since it has the most detail on the hilt.

Reply
Michael
1/6/2016 11:16:29 am

Awesome! Does the California sword have any symbols written on it? In the the "Experiencing Rome" video, I recall they said that there seemed to be some symbols. I'm asking about the California sword because it seems that the symbols would be most visible because it has the most fine details.

Information on the video: http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/experiencing-rome-a-visual-exploration-of-antiquity-s-greatest-empire.html

I watched it at my local library. The sword appears towards the end of "24: Emperors as Performers".

Reply
Andy White
1/6/2016 11:19:28 am

A post will coming about some of this soon. The California sword is still en route, and the "Experiencing Rome" series has apparently been delivered to my house today (but I'm at the office).

Reply
Michael
1/6/2016 07:33:40 pm

Great! I can't wait. :)

Traveller
1/6/2016 12:04:07 pm

Almost up to the 8 or 10 swords from the Legend of the Commander

Reply
Andy White
1/6/2016 12:11:43 pm

I'm sure we could get there if everyone would go spend an hour rifling through the boxes in their grandparents' attics.

Reply
Traveller
1/6/2016 12:51:01 pm

By grandparents attic, that's code talk for "eBay" right?

Peter Geuzen
1/6/2016 01:10:22 pm

Full Sword to Full Sword comparisons, with the available info at this point:

http://imgur.com/d1Od7jw

Maybe when Andy gets the California Sword, a better attempt can be made of a Blade to Blade comparison, excluding the Florida Sword which unfortunately doesn't seem to have a good blade pic

Reply
sword skeptic
1/6/2016 07:08:21 pm

Thank you, Peter!

Reply
Dustin
1/13/2016 12:31:48 pm

PULITZER'S A FAKE!!

First of all, its a known fact that reproductions were a huge seller for British merchants back in the 1800's. It was around the time that Troy was discovered when merchants thought of the idea of making "ancient" reproductions for money. Thats what I think the Oak Island sword is. You can clearly see brass or copper on the sword so if it was a real sword from Roman times it would have been iron or another material. Certainly not brass or copper!

Reply



Leave a Reply.


    All views expressed in my blog posts are my own. The views of those that comment are their own. That's how it works.

    I reserve the right to take down comments that I deem to be defamatory or harassing. 

    Andy White

    Follow me on Twitter: @Andrew_A_White

    Email me: andy.white.zpm@gmail.com

    Enter your email address:

    Delivered by FeedBurner


    Picture

    Sick of the woo?  Want to help keep honest and open dialogue about pseudo-archaeology on the internet? Please consider contributing to Woo War Two.
    Picture

    Follow updates on posts related to giants on the Modern Mythology of Giants page on Facebook.

    Archives

    January 2023
    January 2022
    November 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    March 2021
    June 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    April 2017
    March 2017
    February 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    October 2016
    September 2016
    August 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    May 2016
    April 2016
    March 2016
    February 2016
    January 2016
    December 2015
    November 2015
    October 2015
    September 2015
    August 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    December 2014
    November 2014
    September 2014
    August 2014
    June 2014
    May 2014
    April 2014
    March 2014

    Categories

    All
    3D Models
    AAA
    Adena
    Afrocentrism
    Agent Based Modeling
    Agent-based Modeling
    Aircraft
    Alabama
    Aliens
    Ancient Artifact Preservation Society
    Androgynous Fish Gods
    ANTH 227
    ANTH 291
    ANTH 322
    Anthropology History
    Anunnaki
    Appalachia
    Archaeology
    Ardipithecus
    Art
    Atlantis
    Australia
    Australopithecines
    Aviation History
    Bigfoot
    Birds
    Boas
    Book Of Mormon
    Broad River Archaeological Field School
    Bronze Age
    Caribou
    Carolina Bays
    Ceramics
    China
    Clovis
    Complexity
    Copper Culture
    Cotton Mather
    COVID-19
    Creationism
    Croatia
    Crow
    Demography
    Denisovans
    Diffusionism
    DINAA
    Dinosaurs
    Dirt Dance Floor
    Double Rows Of Teeth
    Dragonflies
    Early Archaic
    Early Woodland
    Earthworks
    Eastern Woodlands
    Eastern Woodlands Household Archaeology Data Project
    Education
    Egypt
    Europe
    Evolution
    Ewhadp
    Fake Hercules Swords
    Fetal Head Molding
    Field School
    Film
    Florida
    Forbidden Archaeology
    Forbidden History
    Four Field Anthropology
    Four-field Anthropology
    France
    Genetics
    Genus Homo
    Geology
    Geometry
    Geophysics
    Georgia
    Giants
    Giants Of Olden Times
    Gigantism
    Gigantopithecus
    Graham Hancock
    Grand Valley State
    Great Lakes
    Hollow Earth
    Homo Erectus
    Hunter Gatherers
    Hunter-gatherers
    Illinois
    India
    Indiana
    Indonesia
    Iowa
    Iraq
    Israel
    Jim Vieira
    Jobs
    Kensington Rune Stone
    Kentucky
    Kirk Project
    Late Archaic
    Lemuria
    Lithic Raw Materials
    Lithics
    Lizard Man
    Lomekwi
    Lost Continents
    Mack
    Mammoths
    Mastodons
    Maya
    Megafauna
    Megaliths
    Mesolithic
    Michigan
    Middle Archaic
    Middle Pleistocene
    Middle Woodland
    Midwest
    Minnesota
    Mississippi
    Mississippian
    Missouri
    Modeling
    Morphometric
    Mound Builder Myth
    Mu
    Music
    Nazis
    Neandertals
    Near East
    Nephilim
    Nevada
    New Mexico
    Newspapers
    New York
    North Carolina
    Oahspe
    Oak Island
    Obstetrics
    Ohio
    Ohio Valley
    Oldowan
    Olmec
    Open Data
    Paleoindian
    Paleolithic
    Pilumgate
    Pleistocene
    Pliocene
    Pre Clovis
    Pre-Clovis
    Prehistoric Families
    Pseudo Science
    Pseudo-science
    Radiocarbon
    Reality Check
    Rome
    Russia
    SAA
    Sardinia
    SCIAA
    Science
    Scientific Racism
    Sculpture
    SEAC
    Search For The Lost Giants
    Sexual Dimorphism
    Sitchin
    Social Complexity
    Social Networks
    Solutrean Hypothesis
    South Africa
    South America
    South Carolina
    Southeast
    Stone Holes
    Subsistence
    Swordgate
    Teaching
    Technology
    Teeth
    Television
    Tennessee
    Texas
    Topper
    Travel
    Travel Diaries
    Vaccines
    Washington
    Whatzit
    White Supremacists
    Wisconsin
    Woo War Two
    World War I
    World War II
    Writing
    Younger Dryas

    RSS Feed

    Picture
Proudly powered by Weebly