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A Database of Fake Hercules Swords

1/23/2016

30 Comments

 
As the number of Fake Hercules Swords (FHS's) continues to grow, it allows us to better identify and understand their variability.  They're all united into a single group based on the cast Hercules figure that comprises the hilt, but there is variation in the materials used, the "quality" of the casting, and the characteristics of the blades. As I mentioned briefly yesterday, those differences allow us to start to divide our FHS assemblage into some fairly clear "types." I think those types probably have chronological significance. 

We've got 10 swords now (see the latest #Swordgate poster created by Peter Geuzen) and that's past the number where it becomes useful to start tracking data in a more organized way.  I've created a database (here's an Excel file of the 1/23/2016 version) to start keeping track of the swords. This will be a "living" document to which we can add information as it becomes available (I'll be able to get metrics directly from the Design Toscano sword, the California sword, and soon the Italian eBay sword).  I'll also be able to derive some metrics from photos. I'll maintain the original in Microsoft Access and post updated copies in Excel.
View post on imgur.com
It's now possible to justify at least three provisional "types" based on non-overlapping characteristics of design and raw material.

  • Type F: This type includes copper alloy swords (n = 2) with a small section of double fullered blade near the hilt. This type includes the California sword (Sword 3) and the Sonja Sword (Sword 8).  

  • Type J: These are copper alloy swords (n = 4) with the distinctive set of ridges/grooves and other anomalies on the blade. This group includes the Nova Scotia sword (Sword 1) that was at the center of the whole Swordgate debacle as well as the Florida sword (Sword 2), the Italian eBay sword (Sword 4), and the France sword (Sword 6).

  • Type I: These are the modern cast iron (the "I" is for iron) swords produced by the likes of Design Toscano. I don't yet know if there is any significant variability in the iron swords that are currently being sold under various different names. There could be, I suppose, and it might be somewhat interesting. But I think it's more likely that these modern iron swords are probably all produced from a copy of a single "parent" that is somewhere farther back in the Fake Hercules Sword lineage.

I think there may be modern copper alloy reproduction swords being produced somewhere (if not currently, then in the recent past). These swords appear to have relatively "clean" blades (i.e, unlike the Type J swords). I think the Spain sword (Sword 7) and the sword currently for sale on eBay from Florida (Sword 10).  If the raw material of those swords could be confirmed as copper alloy and the measurements could be shown to match, I think we'd be justified in created a "type" for them.

Understanding and organizing variability is one of the first things archaeologists have to do when confronted with an assemblage of things. It's impossible to do with a single example, of course, because there's nothing with which to compare that single example. As the number of Fake Hercules Swords has grown, we've been able to start to get at variability and develop some ideas about that variability means.

The Mother Of All Fake Hercules Swords (MOAFHS) may still be out there to be found, and that's still a question of interest. As we discussed in this blog post (and many insightful comments), there are a number of plausible ideas about what the MOAFHS might have been. The possibility that the MOAFHS was a real ancient Roman sword in the Naples Museum (as maintained by sword advocates) now seems pretty remote. The possibility that the MOAFHS was originally created as a tourist souvenir seems much more likely (it has also been suggested that the MOFHS could have perhaps been a hunting sword, some kind of figural dagger, or even a movie prop).

As far as chronological significance, my money is still on Type F as the earliest. It seems to have the greatest detail in the figure and blade details (fullers) that are absent in the other types. As Jonathan Feinstein pointed out, the fullers on the Sonja sword appear to be possibly longer than those on the California sword, suggesting it may be earlier in the copy chain. We have direct evidence from the Sonja sword that Type F dates to at least as early as 1970. 

Finally, I have started a Facebook group "Fake Hercules Swords" for those interested in this. Several good sword leads came via Facebook, so I think it's good to keep that channel as open as possible.
30 Comments
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 07:54:56 am

We will need to get consistent terminology and revisions going here, so that everyone is communicating with the same understanding of which sword or group or number we are talking about. I renamed the alleged Oak Island Sword to the Lagina Sword after the results of the last show, but you are calling it the Nova Scotia Sword. In my mind we really have no idea where it physically came from but we do know who owns it. When I did the update poster we were using Sonja Rome but that has since changed to just Sonja so I can fix that. I also renamed Florida to Florida Kenney to avoid confusion with the newer Florida eBay. In terms of the anomalies, maybe I should go back and read everything, but I thought the feeling was the Florida Kenney Sword was too crappy a picture to clearly conclude it has the backward J, and that the French is clear enough to see the ridge, or maybe I just decided that myself when playing with the pictures. I actually think there might be a couple other dot feature similarities. I can revise accordingly depending on consensus. This last update was also done before getting better pictures of the Sonja Sword so that’s another revision. Your numbering scheme doesn’t match any order that I’ve lined things up in, but fair enough if we are going to start grouping them because updates can better show grouping units.

Can some of us get a continuing ed course credit out of this, or what?

Reply
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 07:59:31 am

I guess I should have read the XL file first. I see you have alternate names listed. Maybe we should pick one or the other for future updates.

Reply
Andy White
1/23/2016 08:00:10 am

I numbered the swords in terms of "order found." So the next one found will be 11.

I included a column "alternate name" for cases where we've started calling them two different things (the numbers add clarity here as well - we can just call the Nova Scotia/Lagina sword "Sword 1" and there won't be any confusion).

I've got the four "J's" in the group - Nova Scotia/Lagina, Florida/Kenney, France, and Italian eBay - right?

Yes. This course is worth 3 credits.

Reply
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 08:04:47 am

Just beat you on the alternate name thing. Check the time stamp, haha.

Reply
Dave Stembel
1/23/2016 08:01:37 am

I'm just going to audit the course . . .

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
1/23/2016 08:08:24 am

Good work to both of you, Andy and Peter! A very nice start.

3 Credits? Well, it's been a long time since I was in school, but another 3 hours on my transcript cannot hurt. ;-)

Reply
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 08:11:29 am

Do we add the wide blade version from the newspaper picture from Sonja?

Reply
Andy White
1/23/2016 08:13:31 am

I thought it looked "real," but others thought the blade shape was just perspective distortion. What's your vote?

Reply
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 08:17:36 am

I think it's a true wide blade. Maybe give it a low status sub-type category pending confirmation by finding a real one.

Andy White
1/23/2016 08:23:31 am

It will be Sword 11. What should we name it?

Andy White
1/23/2016 08:26:23 am

I'll create a provisional "Type P" for pugio.

Mike
1/24/2016 08:52:55 am

Looks like a leaf shaped blade to me. Would like to see a translation of the story since they were arrested for trafficking in (actual? ) antiquities.

Andy Whit
1/24/2016 06:08:05 pm

Check the comments on the Sonja sword post - there's a translation.

Mike Jones
1/23/2016 11:25:07 am

All the guys posting on this blog calling Pulitzer a genius and calling Andy a fake archaeologist, etc., they're all kind of M.I.A. right now.

Reply
Andy White
1/23/2016 11:30:29 am

Funny, isn't it? It's pretty easy to mostly ignore that when you have confidence that your methods will eventually produce a credible explanation.

Reply
Killbuck
1/23/2016 06:36:56 pm

A somewhat reclusive genius, I believe was what his cult of personality video said.

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
1/24/2016 12:47:07 am

And just like almost everything else he says, it is utterly inaccurate. Certainly not reclusive enough and... oh well.

Reply
Peter Geuzen
1/23/2016 08:15:01 pm

Looks like they nailed it shut, with the follow-up story regarding the peavey points:

http://www.oakislandcompendium.ca/blockhouse-blog/oak-island-sawmill-we-think-youll-get-the-point

Reply
Andy White
1/24/2016 05:01:25 am

Boltgate, we hardly knew you.

Reply
Ben
1/24/2016 01:59:44 am

Hey Andy, what about the two swords mentioned in the Epoch article that were found in Germany near the settlement? I'm curious to know if you found anything on these swords, the settlement, and the mine that is mentioned that has a supposed naturally occurring organic zinc? Thx

Reply
Jonathan Feinstein
1/24/2016 03:38:11 am

Organic zinc? In chemistry the term organic means there is carbon in the compound. Zinc is an element so if they found zinc it is not organic.

There is such a thing as "Organozinc," a family of compounds sold (I think) to increase one's personal zinc intake, but I do not see how that applies.

Do you mean, instead, "Native zinc?" That is a naturally occurring bit of metallic zinc (rather than as a part of an ore). It is very rare and even when found is never in much abundance.

Reply
Andy White
1/24/2016 05:03:27 am

I'm hesitant to believe anything about these stories until I actually see evidence. There have been mentions of sword(s) from Germany, a sword in a New Jersey collection, and of course the elusive "very famous sword in the Naples Museum" that apparently no-one was ever seen. I don't doubt there are other swords out there (probably lots of them), but I don't believe any of the assertions coming out of Pulitzer any more.

Reply
Mike Morgan
1/24/2016 05:52:29 pm

On his review/analysis or whatever one wants to call his diatribe on his webcast on Wednesday, he stated there was a "verified" sword in Maine as well as the "verified" Florida, Netherlands, and Naples Museum swords - no mention of a New Jersey one. A gaffe or is there a heretofore unmentioned sword? I thought David Kenney wrote there was a sword in a New Jersey collection (and I thought he also claimed his, the Florida sword, also had the "magical" magnetic qualities attributed to the OI sword, but those references are no longer found on his webpage - ?), but I don't recall if Pulitzer ever talked/wrote about it.

Oh, by the way, congratulations on your promotion! He now calls you a "junior professor at a South Carolina university" instead of " a teacher at some Junior College" I'm sure you quickly revised your resume.

Andy White
1/24/2016 06:11:00 pm

Details, details . . . swords everywhere. Name a state. What does it matter?

He promoted me from Assistant to Associate Professor in one of his "angry at the world" blog posts. But he said I still couldn't call myself "professor." He's quite the taskmaster.

Mike Morgan
1/24/2016 07:30:25 pm

"Details, details . . . swords everywhere. Name a state. What does it matter?"

But ... but, Hutton sometimes says "words (long pause) matter. words (even longer pause) matter"!

Oh, I can't carry on with this. I just fined myself another small donation to your Woo War One campaign for my foolishness.

Andy Whit
1/31/2016 09:39:26 am

Thanks Mike!

Sharek Gadd link
1/24/2016 04:26:27 am

The problem with this Pulitzer character is that he is an idiot.
You can't argue with an idiot; an idiot will drag you down to their level and beat you with stupidity.
I've never understood the fascination with fake archeology. The world is absolutely littered with interesting and valuable information waiting to be placed in context and yet this brand of forgery surfaces.

Thank you for taking this joker to task, but beware of further punches to the brain.

Reply
Max
3/3/2016 09:46:26 am

Does anyone know anything about the real Hercules swords?they exist?

Reply
Paok
5/19/2022 07:05:09 pm

Bolches yarboclos

Reply



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