3D Model of the Hilt of Sword 23

3/29/2017

I've spent the last few days in the thick of a lot of data collection, data entry, and strategic planning. I haven't had much time for writing, but I did manage to cobble together this 3D model of the hilt of Fake Hercules Sword No. 23 (original post here). Enjoy!

Fake Hercules Sword 23 -- Hilt by aawhite on Sketchfab

10 Comments

Jonathan E. Feinstein

3/29/2017 09:04:29 am

Nice scan! Is the hilt really as smooth as it looks? That is very smooth with a lot of cast marks smoothed off on the sides of the figure.

Andy White

3/29/2017 09:09:49 am

Yes, it looks like part of the finishing procedure on this model is to grind off the seams with a flap disk or something similar (i.e., something that leaves a smoother finish than a large-grit abrasive wheel).

Peter

3/29/2017 11:26:39 am

Jonathan, can you confirm that your Design Toscano model has a deep shoulder blade groove on the back (see pic link)? Also can you check the lion skin headdress on the back - is it obvious or just blurred out and almost smooth? Here's a pic comparing the back of my DT to the #23 scan. You can see the difference in the shoulder blades. This suggests that 23 is not a direct copy, however it might be a change derived from a DT base, with the gap filled in a bit. I'm curious if there are actually any differences between DTs.

FYI - We have identified changes in the gap and in headdress anomalies that have been added into the timeline model, which presumably will make it to the blog someday, fully updated.

http://imgur.com/a/o9hnc

Jonathan E. Feinstein

3/29/2017 12:48:19 pm

Oh, yes, very deep groove there. I think it goes so deep that It might be parallel to the surface of the reverse side of the mold. although the bottom is rounded, not flat so maybe that's an exaggeration. Someone working on the master for Sword 23 (or a predecessor) may have had the first thought I did about that and decided the musculature was unrealistic or it could be from a lineage that headressdiverged from what developed into the DT design.

Also, yes the back of the headdress look like the one in the picture, mostly smooth with hints at some sort of texture.

I did, at one time observe that the miniscule bump on the top of Andy's DT sword seemed more pronounced than on mine, but I have since decided the difference is camera angle. if I tip the head slightly away, the "barely a bump" becomes slightly more pronounced.

So if there are differences in the DT swords, I cannot prove it from mine.

Peter

3/29/2017 01:23:05 pm

Thanks. I want to think that 23 is a variant of DT but it is quite possible that it is a direct variant of earlier CS. The time gap back to CS seems to be too big for us not to have seen more info/examples that help identify lineage, but 23 might be based on a CS that literally sat around on a shelf for years.

Jonathan E. Feinstein

3/30/2017 09:10:00 am

23 could still be a CS descendant, although I would not argue that too enthusiastically. Given the care someone showed to smooth off the cast mold marks and not just grind them off roughly might indicate that they also filled in the deep pit between the shoulder blades.

Casting the deeper indentations in a sand mold (as we have been conjecturing,) is tricky. The deep indentations cannot extend further back that the line of division between the molds and the deeper they are, the more difficult it can be to get all the details.

Look, for example, on the front of your ST sword. The top of the palmette is very deep between the knees and the top of the center frond (leaf?) barely sticks up above the surface. Someof that might be due to the copy effect, but I'd be willing to put a few bucks down on the chancet hat whatever DT used as a master had been missing that detail too and if a copy of a copy, that loss would go back generations (maybe).

Now check the back between the shoulder blades and just below the neck. Does yours have a sort of invert3ed egg-shaped hint of a flat surface? I think mine is slightly angled, but the mold line along the sides is not perfectly level either.

These sort of things happen because in order to make a sand mold, you have to press your master into the moist or oily sand and then press the top half of the mold down to get the the other half of the piece you wish to cast. (Some sort of parting compound, like powered mica is applied/sprinkled on the flat sand surfaces of the mold which allows both the halves to be separated and the master to be removed) The deeper the feature, the more difficult it is to press it all the way down into the sand, so deep pits, like the top of the palmette between Herc's legs or the groove between his shoulders might not entirely fill with the sand. (note that this is not a consideration in the lost-wax process since in that you make a clay mold around a wax master and melt the wax out. In lost-wax you could actually cast the hairs on the lion's skin if you wanted to)

As generational copies are made, such details get lost even more, but it only take one shallow mold to lose a critical feature. Of course, it's brass, so you could always make a new sand mold and melt down a bad copy and try again.

So if (a big 'If") 23 is a direct CS descendant, it is possible that either in this generation or one in between, someone intentionally filled that groove in in order to get more saleable castings with less effort... Maybe.

Jonathan E. Feinstein

3/30/2017 09:40:29 am

Oops. I was saying CS when I probably should have said DT, although, the arguments apply either way. 23 is arguably a DT contemporary, though likely a different lineage since I believe DT's swords are made in China and 23 is supposedly an Italian-made artifact. Where their common ancestor st6ands, though is still a mystery

Peter

3/30/2017 11:35:18 am

Being a copy of DT makes sense for 23 only by date of find being current. The fact it's made in Italy does lean to it being a direct CS copy however, because DT is an American based product (made in China) with probably limited to no presence in Italy. The fact as well that 23 is paired with 22 from the same seller, really supports both being of similar Italian heritage. What we really need to know, is when these started being made and if the seller has any more history knowledge. I already emailed some questions to the seller but they've gone unanswered. With some encouragement maybe Andy can try to follow-up, and hopefully his credentials might have more sway.

Bot

4/2/2017 02:50:10 pm

Andy, where do all the swords replica's come from? Whats the history behind the sword they are modeling.

Peter

4/2/2017 03:20:07 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxlIDa370w
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChRK9163MJLl93ad6mr1iwA

3D Model of the Hilt of Sword 23

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